I know, right? They don’t just want sex, they want to dominate women. They think that the “traditional” type of society will solve their problems, that they’re somehow being denied their birthright by having to treat women as equals.
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They went wrong when they thought it was a game (zero-sum, no doubt), and with victory conditions.
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I think they went wrong when they decided women are’t human beings like them.
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The comic literally references PUAs and social groups for PUAs that became alt-right. The alpha and beta male terminology is literally from PUAs, and is a direct transition into cuck being tossed around constantly. The alt-right just trasitioned from sleeping around to a more Christian nailing down a ten in a marriage using PUA advice.
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Thank you for citing that article. It seems I was wrong, then.
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- Accept ideology that says that women aren’t really people, but just things, in order to get laid
- Fail to get laid following the tenants of that ideology
It feels like step (3) ought to be “Realize that the ideology was bullshit snake oil” but instead it’s apparently:
- Continue to accept ideology and it’s practices as gospel; conclude that if they aren’t working for you the fault must be in you; decide to take out that self loathing on women
Honestly, this is giving me a respect I never had for Dr. Phil. These guys really need someone to ask them, “How’s that working for ya?”
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OK. I am probably going to be hated for writing that. Pick-up methods worked surprisingly well. The men I new personally went from almost virgin to getting laid regularly.
I should also stress that, at the time, there was no criticism of “feminism” (I don’t remember the word being used) and much emphasis on self-emprovement: exercises to overcome social anxiety and shyness, sport, advice on posture, clothing, etc… So it was not a surprise that it worked, as the men would actually interact with more women and improve their appearance.
I also do not remember pressure. On the contrary, the saying was that there were plenty of women, so if one is not interested, you go to the next one.
This post just to explain why I don’t quite understand why and when the movement derailled.
Because…
All of these “manosphere” movements – all of them – treat women first and foremost as objects and conveniences: props, trophies, eye candy, sex dolls, replacement mamas once they move out of their childhood homes, etc.
That basic outlook didn’t so much “derail” them as throw signals that continued shunting them onto rail spurs bound for Fascism Junction.
The PUA movement you discuss compounds those views by looking at women as objects to be programmed and tricked into and negotiated into giving up sex. That they included re-packaged bog-standard advice on grooming, fitness, carriage and self-confidence that was only a mystery to socially maladjusted but entitled man-children does not change that toxic underlying attitude.
Also, note how you left out the one piece of surefire advice for any man wanting sex more satisfying than that attained from a Fleshlight or wanting a girlfriend: treat women like fellow human beings to engage with and connect with instead of like strange alien beings to be manipulated or used or purchased.
Note also that, while you’re focused on the men you knew personally going from almost-virgin to getting laid regularly, you don’t give a single thought to the quality of the sex, which improves when the woman’s experience is taken into account.
The criticism of feminism was implied all along in agendas that do not take womens’ feelings, desires, opinions and aspirations into account. As the comic describes, the anti-feminist agenda became explicit and open around the same time that the manosphere’s “leaders” realised its affinity with right-wing philosophies like Libertarianism and xenophobia and racial anxiety, and around the same time that white males in the West realised that the privilege and entitlement party was over for them.
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“Well, that wasn’t my personal experience, so obviously everyone else is wrong.”
~ Said every obtuse, privilege-blind dude-bro who's 'okay' with the status quo.
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Well… I was under the impression at the time that many women had interest in a one night stand or a short fling and the idea was to be the kind of man they were looking for. Quite a different idea. So I understand your point, but it does not relate to my experience of the time.
Also: the men I am talking about did not feel “entitled”. They often had an history of abuse and harassment at school.
And I said nothing that contradicts that.
PUAs and manosphere movements are grounded in a male sense of entitlement. Young men who never got over being bullied or treated like nerds in high school are their prime suckers and recruits.
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The terrible excuses and lame justifications some people grasp at in desperation, though…
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I never said you did.
Yes, that is true. But my experience at the time was that the people I met did not display that sense of entitlement or they would not have been ready to make efforts to improve themselves. I think.
Maybe you just didn’t see it, because that’s not the face they showed you, because you weren’t the target for their sense of entitlement?
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Then why bring up something irrelevant to the discussion?
Improving oneself superficially is relatively easy – buy new clothes, go to the gym stand up straight. So are the shortcuts and manipulative tricks and pickup lines the PUAs teach (but that are far from surefire).
The sense of entitlement comes from the fact that suckers like your old friends think that doing this bare minimum is all that’s necessary to get quality sex or a girlfriend, and from the fact that they (and you) put aside the easiest “trick” of all: treating women to whom they’re attracted as people and listening to them in addition to talking at them.
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I don’t think so. I knew them fairly well and I have seen them interact with women.
Funny that these dudes never think to replace “feminism” with “heterosexuality”.
Dude’s just trying to get laid!
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In an intimate setting? Behind closed doors?
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I was painting a particular path that some people end up walking. Everyone has their own individual experience.
I had a roommate who got PUA newsletters and we used to talk about what was in them. I have to credit some of the advice from those newsletters for helping me navigate dating and meet my spouse. They seemed like a mixed bag of general good advice and toxic ideology. That’s pretty par for the course for anything that wants to indoctrinate you, though. If following your ideology doesn’t make people feel good, at least temporarily, then they aren’t going to become ideologues.
It’s like how one of Jordan Peterson’s rules is “treat yourself like you would treat someone you are in charge of taking care of.” I think that’s fantastic advice, and well put. But it’s there to sell you on the lobster bullshit.
So I believe people were able to use PUA advice to improve their success with attracting people. I’m sure somewhere there are individuals who went from being too shy to say anything to learning and using manipulative techniques, to building enough confidence to actually be themselves, to having great relationships and repudiating the toxic parts.
But there are surely also people who found the techniques worked for them and had that reinforce their idea that women aren’t really people the way men are and thus became more and more misogynous. There are people who had the techniques fail for them and then formed misogynist incel communities.
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