That’s a bit less severe but your approach still seems to be premised on two ideas:
The kids need to suffer some sort of punishment in addition to the removal of the father, because of the actions of their father.
That the kids don’t already know that the father is a creep and need it further explained to them.
Odds are that a guy who is a creep to Tinkerbell, especially if he’s doing it in the presence of his family, has already been a creep (or worse) to his (usually) young daughters who just wanted to meet Tinkerbell. The daughters have likely already suffered enough.
I still think that in the case of a father acting badly the park owes the family a truthful explanation of why he’s being banned from the park and/or criminally charged, but otherwise should just stay out of the affairs of the non-offenders.
I’m definitely guilty of trying to figure out what the best response would be, though I haven’t had enough of anything to weigh in.
But to your point, agree 100%, the dudes shouldn’t be sexually harassing anyone, let alone children’s characters while on family vacation.
I just can’t help myself, though, from then thinking, “well, when they do, though, what would be the best response?”
I think it’s a side-effect of my job drafting policy, bc I always have to take it out that next step of: and what will be the consequence when people flout the policy?
Especially in a kid-centric place like a Disney park. IIRC, some Little League teams have a similar rule, where the obnoxious sports parent is perma-banned from future games and the kid spends the rest of that game on the bench or is sent home with the parent so an explanation can be given.
Two hours in a waiting room and then back to the park is not the end of the world.
They might not know he’s an arsehole. A lot of these types are very good at hiding their crappy behaviour from their kids. Not after an incident like this, though.
My scenario makes sure he gives (or tries to give) the family that explanation during that “private time” second hour while they await his black maria.
Then the rest of the family can get passes for another time.
I’m sick and tired of living in a world where the safety and comfort of women is secondary to the needs of men. Beyond sick, actually. There needs to be consequences and in some cases, that needs to extend to the community in which that person is embedded.
When men make the decision to do better and we start restructuring society around the idea that all people actually ARE equal.
What fucking cultural sensitivity is that? Men feeling entitled to women’s bodies should not be something that is ever, EVER, tolerated. Period.
I’d argue that the kids likely live in a household where this kind of thing is tolerated and even encouraged, and understanding that certain behaviors, even if encouraged by one’s family, can have actual consequences. As I’m sure you know (as you have kiddos yourself) part of growing up is learning how actions DO have consequences and seeing one’s parent get in trouble (and having that impact your life) reflects that pretty well. If someone’s dad is a fucking creep, maybe they need to learn about that so they can modify their own behavior later in life and not just mindlessly emulate old dad. Given how little some men seem to care about teaching their sons respect for women, despite us all living here in 2021, maybe the village needs to step up and teach some lessons on basic human decency?
Plus, if everyone suffers the consequences of dad’s actions, maybe the family puts pressure on him to keep his hand to himself?
But okay, let the kids and wife come back later, without the dad. Ban him for life. And if he insists no one gets to go back, then they know who to blame.
Ok, let’s stick to that narrow goal. WHY is it so important to you that kids learn that a parent’s bad behavior can affect them? Is it so they can better train their parents to be upstanding citizens? What exactly do you want the kids to do with that knowledge? And what gives you the idea that a kid with badly behaving parents haven’t already learned the hard way that they too can be affected?
Remember, we already agreed that the father should be banned (and criminally charged where appropriate) so the kids would have seen that actions have consequences. I just don’t agree that the actions need to have consequences for the kids, other than the embarrassment and shame at seeing their father taken away.
This is getting off topic, but reminds me of a story on npr (I think) about when bananas came back to the UK after WWII. The first shipment was earmarked for kids under 18. One guy was interviewed, he was a kid at the time with 2 siblings. He described how his dad took all 3 bananas and sat at the dinner table and ate all 3 right in front of them. The interviewee said, “that was the moment I lost all respect for my father as a person.”
Chilling.
Shit like that is why I dislike Disney in general and don’t intend to ever visit.
I had a family member who got married, and their new spouses family was obsessed with that crap. Took the kids to a “princess party”.
First time I meet my new cousin, they yelled at her for not hugging me, then got mad at ME for saying “if someone makes you feel guilty for not wanting to hug them, they’re the problem” or something to that effect. Later on they also got mad I said maybe the girl wants to learn chess too (I offered to pull out my set and they only sent the guys over)
Anyways to swing it back to the matter at hand:
I sometimes feel bad I have a bad poker face when it comes to these things, but at least I just… have people notice I’m way less chatty if the barista working is cute not… handing out my hotel keys… dear lord, sometimes it’s hard to make eye contact but it’s not difficult to avoid handing out a room key (or a phone number + lewd message)
Because it does? Again, I know you know, but the behavior you model for your kids ends up showing up in their own behavior. But none of us are perfect humans, so I’d argue that learning that parents are human and do fuck up is a valuable lesson. Also learning that society will hold you to a particular standard regarding the treatment of others does matter. All too often, kids in white affluent homes are constantly being shielded from consequences, and that’s not great for learning that how you treat others matters.
That is for sure one way to learn that one’s parent can be an asshole. But most parents manage to keep their boorish behavior away from their kids. Learning that one’s parent is human matters.
@mindysan covers it pretty well above. And yes, good ol’ family dad being exposed for the creep he really is to his kids in this manner can lead that person to change his behaviour, at least in situations (e.g a family-oriented public place) can affect his own kids (e.g. denying them two hours in that place while things are sorted out) or that can cause them to lose respect for him (“Dad did something so bad at Disney that he got perma-banned and – even worse – we had to wait two whole hours while it was sorted out”).
What do you think is going to happen when the kids return to the hotel from the rest of their day without him at the park? “Bygones”? “Dad will be Dad”? I doubt it, especially since dad’s actions had consequences not only for him but for them (kids being kids, often they have to be affected directly by something before its gravity hits home). One of those consequences should be a reckoning with the kids whose day he ruined, one hopes with a positive outcome.
Very much so. It’s part of becoming an adult. Unfortunately, some parents are so flawed that they, for example, sexually harass Tinkerbell at Disneyland. For that kind of parent, it’s never too early for his kid to know the truth about him – especially if he’s adept at hiding it and playing the upstanding family-values dad.
Any other children of someone/s who behaved (sometimes very) badly over here like?
It’s nice to think of them though. Sincerely.
No one worries much about what the kids think or feel when a parent commits non-sexual offences outside of theme parks IME. Like, just… real talk there.
How is seeing a parent being punished for such behavior not sufficient to learn that the behavior is wrong and has consequences?
Of course they shouldn’t be shielded from the knowledge that a parent is getting punished, but I think that kids of all backgrounds should, whenever possible, be shielded from suffering personal consequences for the actions of others that they have no control over. But I guess we just won’t be seeing eye to eye on that.
What would you say is the appropriate direct punishment for a kid whose father is caught stealing something, or whose dad assaults someone?
If it happens in a family-friendly place the kid wants to be, the consequences for the kid should be effectively the same thing (though obviously it’s not a direct punishment, nor am I arguing it should be termed that way): an hour or two of being stuck waiting in a back room while other kids are out in the main space having fun and dad’s perma-ban and ejection is duly and carefully sorted out by management (presumably with mom or perhaps CPS being called in). If you see that as an intolerably unfair and direct punishment for a kid or think that it won’t make the kids lose respect for their father, we’ll just have to disagree.
Who the heck suggested that a “shrug” from society is an appropriate consequence? I’m the one who suggested criminal charges, not you. As I said at the beginning of this back-and-forth, I’m totally in favor of severe consequences. I’m just not in favor of more collateral damage (in the form of 6 year old girls) than necessary. But I guess we’re done here.
