The UK is not a nation though, it’s an unequal and slightly abusive partnership of about 4 nations (depending on how you count). Politically it’s very inhomogeneous: there’s a considerable chance of Scotland (where UKIP and the Conservatives both have negligible support) voting for independence this year.
That, more than anything UKIP could do on their worst day, would shake things up, and probably force a bit of long-overdue reform.
Also, there will be somewhere to go in case a Conservative/UKIP coalition sleepwalks over the Godwin line.
I agree. Farage is taking the Boris Johnson route - he’ll turn up on programmes like HIGNFY and take the ribbing and prodding with good grace, and I think it’ll win him more votes than he loses. It’s superficially pleasing for those who already know he’s an unpleasant specimen, but they don’t need convincing - to anyone who’s undecided or uninformed he comes across as a game sort, possibly a bit of a rogue but at least upfront about it, willing to laugh at himself, etc. etc. I think that’s dangerous stuff, because even if you think Farage is a bit of a Bertie Wooster character, you have to remember that if he gets into number 10 there won’t be a Jeeves on hand.
I think you will find if you get past the tabloid press and the tub-thumping Xenophobic politicos - there are huge unheard groups in the UK that love the EU -Those in manufacturing industries, in e-commerce, in transport services, in tourism, - the benefits of being in the EU are manifest to these groups.
I don’t like UKIP, wouldn’t vote for them or want to spend time with their membership. But I remember sitting in the cold under St Paul’s during Occupy and everyone talking about how bad global capitalism was, the IMF, the WTO etc etc. How there was a huge democratic deficit, people are disillusioned with representative politics, no-one feels like they have any control over what happens in their communities.
Why does the EU get a free pass on this? Global free trade deals don’t generally seem that popular on BB, but EU=good is just taken as an article of faith? Could it not be seen as a bit of a bankers’ club with better PR - exploiting people’s good intentions?
Is it possible that UKIP are now channeling some of the same frustrations that inspired Occupy - frustration with rich guys telling us that it’s a globalised world now, so just suck it up? Just in a more racist, less vegan way?
I’m posing all of these as questions because I’m still making my mind up.
Parts, yes… but even the directly elected European Parliament hardly feels like a vibrant hotbed of democratic debate. I mean I guess you could argue that the tools for democratic accountability are there, and it’s up to European citizens to use them - but don’t the low turnouts suggest that many EU citizens just aren’t that engaged in the idea of a single European polity?
But most importantly it is a collaboration of 27 nations which in itself is an achievement especially if you consider that the preferred historical alternative is war. Isn’t it remarkable that they get things done? Imagine deciding anything with your 26 least favourite relatives.
And most remarkably the EU actually tolerates the antics of a wayward prepubescent like Farage who is being paid handsomely to undermine and disrupt and use his resources freely to campaign against the EU. That is lived tolerance!
I just wish the press would cover an MEP who is actually doing work as opposed to one who is diverting EU funds to satisfy his personal vanity.
No, it suggests that people have a very short historical memory and that the press is not particularly great at covering complex negotiations on complicated and nationally sensitive matters in a manner which enthuses or engages the population.
It is so much easier to write about how everything is everyone else’s fault.
The UK has benefited enormously from well functioning education systems else where, certain things like plumbing in London would collaps without well trained EU migrants.
Have a look at the Green Party of England and Wales European policy. They might be closer to what you believe.
(I know I shouldn’t be advising you to vote, with me being an anarchist, but I am too tired to debate about the flaws of representative democracy. Besides, unless their LGBT policy had drastically changed, Ukip could be really bad news for me.)
Oh I wasn’t going to vote for Ukip!! Jesus. I’m thinking more about a future EU referendum. Five years ago I would have voted to stay in with head and heart, in two years’ time it would probably only be with head. The romantic post-war “we’re all in this together” notion that Nojaboja refers to just doesn’t seem to cut it anymore, for me anyway - it feels like that notion is now largely providing cover for business to get what it wants. Sure, I might profit from all those cheap plumbers, the UK as a whole almost certainly does, but isn’t that just a variation of the “hey, all these Occupy kids have iPhones” argument? (and do you think there were no British plumbers before the EU?)
The argument that people aren’t voting in EP elections because they’ve forgotten about WW2, or because the media is doing a poor job doesn’t really cut it for me either. There can be a peaceful community of separate states without a single European polity, without people being expected to politically conceive of themselves as being Europeans. Such solidarity, if it is to exist, has to be genuine and meaningful, it can’t/shouldn’t just be imposed from above by the EC via the media.
Anyway three comments is probably enough on an article about Ukip being racist to Lenny Henry, thanks for the debate!
Suggest to me that many people are disillusioned by the whole political process. To a lot of people I’d wager that they don’t see much point in voting when the end result will simply be “a politician” being voted in.
The BBC like Farage because he does good television on programmes like Question Time which is usually an hour of rehearsed soundbites from a small collection of politicians who are on week after week after bloody week. The same applies to George Galloway and rabble rousers like Melanie Phillips - they can be sure of an audience reaction and getting the BBC trending on Twitter.
That it utterly distorts the political process, that they shamelessly broadcast lies which the host is unwilling or unable to combat is immaterial - it’s all about being seen to be relevant. And that’s why they never bother putting a scientist on even in weeks when a science story will be in the headlines; having someone who wants to talk about both sides of the issue and who won’t be tied down to an absolute yes or no - bad television. Having a know-nothing demagogue - ratings gold.
Plenty of working-class voters supporting UKIP, because the BNP/EDL/NF are too overtly racist thugs, and UKIP pretends to be more respectable and has more mainstream support. A working-class bigot not wanting to look like a violent thug doesn’t necessarily mean they are trying to be middle-class.
Yes, but the UKIP “anti-establishment” front is a fraud. They aren’t just nasty xenophobic racists, they are nasty xenophobic racists who shouldn’t be trusted with the economy either.
(And Labour deserve some shit for having claimed an end to “boom and bust” before the recession, but the economy was globally fucked. The Tories wouldn’t have put in regulation to stop the problems either, and Britain under the Tories has been slower to crawl out of recession than some other countries.)
The main Ukip fraud is their claim to be libertarian. They are more socially authoritarian in general than Labour or the Conservatives, and don’t want the EU to tell them that their actions are unacceptable. They’re like the Tea Party in that respect.
