Sure, no problem.
Again, more propaganda.
CHavez reduced poverty? Well, yes. A poverty that increased during his tenure.
During the first years of the CHávez govt, poverty increased to levels not seen in the last 30 years in Venezuela. Even if it had been increasing slowly during the previous govts, the increase was a lot higher in the beginning of the Chavez era. Then he hit jackpot and oil prices increased 8 fold. Only after that the poverty started decreasing again, just matching the slope of the previous trend:
If you compare Venezuela to Peru, a country that did not benefit of the same oil boom, they did very well in poverty reduction, without as much oil income, and withotu authoritarian jerks in power, mocking cilivi liberties and insulting dissenters. Peru is not a perfect country, far from it, but they managed to reduce poverty. Brasil also did, without the same jerk being in power for 14 years, until he died.
So, it’s only a 50% reduction if you measure it against the record poverty that happened under his govt. If you plot it against the poverty levels before his term, you see that the slope is pretty much the same, despite oil prices being 8X higher. So, Peru, without all those billion dollars was much, much more efficient reducing poverty. It is a shame that we still have so much poverty and we are taking loans when oil is so expensive.
Again, you are very ignorant of the real situation here.
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Yes, you appear to have been correct – Ecuador seems to use the US dollar for everything but small transactions. Now that is out of the way, it doesn’t mean anything with regard to whether Ecuador is a US pawn, which was the original point we were discussing. The fact is that Ecuador has bucked US economic doctrine in many ways over the past 7 or so years. The US is not happy with Ecuador. Is Ecuador completely independent of the worlds only superpower? Of course not. But it has come a long way since the days it of military dictatorships and US-stooge presidents. There are always criticisms that can be leveled at any government. But it is indisputable that a large number of states that were US pawns are vastly more independent and socialized than they ever were in the 20th century. It is a startling phenomenon given how every single Central and South American nation used to be under the thumb of the USA. The states that have moved away from US domination include Ecuador, Nicaragua, Honduras (before the coup in 2009), Venezuela and Argentina. That’s all I’m going to say on the subject.
My apologies if I am doing something wrong. I find this new system kind of annoying and confusing – specifically the way everything is broken out into separate comments regardless of whether they are replies or not. There should be a setting to either see them broken out, or nested. Instead we get the this crappy hybrid that makes it hard to find the comment you want to reply to if you are looking at the nested comment.
OSGuido was the one that made the original observation regarding this point. And he didn’t appear to have been correct: He was correct.
No one is completely free. The only ones that believe such a thing are kids and fools (Tywin Lannister dixit)
Look, if you ask to a Venezuelan what are his/her concerns right now, his/her probable answer is going to be related with: Security concerns (Will I get back home in one piece? When they are going to do something about this never-ending crime wave?), economy concerns (is the government going to devalue the currency again??? Will I find toilet paper, cooking oil, sugar? Will the prices rise again this month?), and political concerns (when is this environ of social conflict and hatred is going to end?). The concern about being “a U.S. pawn” sure it doesn’t appear anywhere, since that is a concern maybe from the Cold War era, and a concern limited to left wing extremists with nothing better to do. It’s a hollow, conceptual concern. A Byzantine concern few care about in this country.
For me, all this hoopla about “Oh Chávez, champion of the poor, the one who liberated Venezuelans from the U.S. pawns” is nothing but rubbish from persons who doesn’t even have a clue (and most of the times, from persons who doesn’t even know Venezuela, or even have visited the place). It’s like watching kids buying that cool Che Guevara t-shirt, without even thinking in the misery that man brought to Cuba (probably they don’t even know who the guy was).
Sure it looks cool, because it didn’t and doesn’t affect your life…
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Yadda, yadda, yadda.
Can we stop this bullshit, please? Policies should not be directed to make people that hates the US govt happy. Policies should be directed to help people, to ensure their welfare and the state should not restricting civil liberties, neither politicians should be stealing public money. Here we have shown some very nasty violations of human rights, we have documented the scarcity situation in Venezuela, we have shown that the highest poverty rate in Venezuela during the last 30 years occurred during Chávez term and you have remained completely silent about those issues. Not a single word. All you do is talk about the US this, US that, US that other. Stop it, please. And, no, this is not a defense of the US. This is merely asking you to consider other issues besides the US.
The atrocities that happened in Central America and in Argentina and Chile, American backed, indeed, did not happen in Venezuela. Since you don’t even know the basics about Ecuadorian economy, I am pretty sure you don’t know anything about Venezuelan history. We had mostly leftist governments before Chávez, and even our “right wing” were Christian Democrats, more centrists than anything else. The hated Carlos Andrés Pérez was vice-president of the Socialist International for three terms, under Willy Brandt. Pérez actually had Fidel Castro as a guest on his second inauguration, for fuck’s sake.
Pérez had social programs that helped the poor: Direct cash transfers, vouchers for food, meals for schoolchildren, school uniforms and supplies, and literacy programs for adults, among other programs. Very similar to the ones that Chávez had later. A big difference (During Pérez’ second term) were oil prices: heavy crude prices - Wolfram|Alpha . Chávez had vast amounts of money to run his social programs. And of course, his undeniable charm and extremely charismatic personality.
So, if you argue that a country like Ecuador, that has the USD as currency and thats has trade agreements with the US, is free and sovereign, you have absolutely no argument at all that Venezuela was under the thumb of the US, when our president was vice-president of the Socialist International and welcomed Fidel Castro with arms wide open. Castro even condemned the coup attempt by Chávez.
So, if modern Ecuador, using dollars as currency, is not under the thumb of the US, then Venezuela was not. The US has never had military bases in Venezuelan soil. And these days, we are under the thumb of Cuba. Maduro has sang the Cuban anthem on TV, Cuban flags are routine these days in Venezuela, showing up even in military bases, full mast. Venezuela never, ever, had this kind of relationship with the US. I never saw a single American flag on govt buildings or military bases when I was a kid or a teenager, before Chávez. So, stop the yapping about Venezuela pre-Chavez being an American pawn if you are not going to admit that Cubans have a lot of authority about what’s going on here. Had the US had as much as a tenth of the very public control they have on our govt, people like you would be howling, but, since it’s Cuba, move over, nothing to see here.
Obviously these govts were not perfect, they had a lot of failures, they were corrupt (but much less than this govt), and they ignored the reality of the poorest of the country, who felt neglected, who felt ignored. Chávez great achievement was listening to this people, making them feel he cared, making a deep connection with them. But that’s not enough, if the govt is not efficient and mismanages the resources, and he used that connection not improve and get us all ahead, but to divide and to incite hate and resentment.
The 2002 cup attempt started very similar to what we just saw in Egypt. A lot of very dissatisfied people against who they thought an autocrat, that was intolerant and wanted to impose his views on everybody. The highest army officer said on live TV that Chávez had renounced (he never went to trial, he continued on his position after those events, so we still don’t know for sure if Chávez resigned or not), after the very violent events of that day. Only after that appeared Pedro Carmona Estanga claiming to be the new president and abolishing the constitution. That’s not what we wanted, and to this day, Carmona is deeply hated by a lot of people, since his power grab scared the military, who returned Chávez to power. Had there been a real plan to oust Chávez, and not hectic improvisation to chase the opportunity, he’d have been killed that day. That day is a very confusing event, even for those of us who lived it. This is way more complex than a regular, American backed coup. This was a coup within a popular revolution, and, still there are some mysteries, like the person who said that Chávez resigned never being ousted, or accused, and those who were accused, finally were acquitted by our Supreme Tribunal. Legally, there was not a coup, but a “vacuum of power”, even if that was changed later, with a different tribunal more loyal to Chávez.
In any case, long story short, Venezuela has not been under control of the US, we have had social programs for decades before Chávez, we have had free education for decades, and most of the old politicians were, at least according to the political affiliation and words, left wing. But, I cannot expect that kind of knowledge from somebody who ignore the most basic facts of the countries he tries to defend.
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Wow these two are still here talking about Chavez and Castro as if they’re still alive…
No wonder folks ain’t buyin’ what you’re sellin’.
Check the dates, this debate ended more than a day ago…
And Castro is still alive, last time I checked.
Define “folks”…
(Who is or isn’t “buyin’ what we’re sellin’”?)
And I’m confused… What are we sellin’? Exactly?
That seem like a statement midway between Strawman, and a Fallacy of composition…
Whoa. Such an astounding level of ignorance. Not even bothering to check Wikipedia to check that Fidel Castro is alive and his brother Raul is running Cuba. And Venezuela, to some extent.
I am not selling anything. You are sounding like a free market obsessed capitalist.
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Ignorance or it could be arrogance OSguido… Beyond belief this guy…
Was a typo when mentioning him with Chavez as you probably guessed, either way neither of them are running their respective countries, in Castro’s case not for a very long time. I hope you too are at least getting a paycheck for the obnoxious, obsessive, dishonest spamming you’re doing. Funny how neither of you has managed to answer the many requests for answers to what better place Snowden should go. Why? Cause you both don’t have a leg to stand on. A couple of anti-democratic, authoritarian neoliberals.
Yeah, sure, whatever…
Nope, I issue my opinions out of my own volition.
And spamming? I’m not selling anything, sorry…
Dishonest? Exactly how? Perhaps you can’t deal with the fact that two Venezuelans are contending the view you have about Venezuela. Or perhaps you are still sore about me telling you that I know more about my own country than you (and I’m sorry to tell you this, but I do)
Obsessive? Passionate about my country all the way. Does that bother you? Not my problem.
Either way, this subject was already closed, as far as I’m concerned. You are the one who seems interested in “picking it up” again…
When was this asked to us, and why should we even care about Snowden’s destination? I will not speak for OSGuido, he can issue his own opinions, but as far as I’m concerned, I don’t give a fig about Edward Snowden. His problems are not my problem, nor are his options. Sorry.
And this was not even the subject of this thread. The thread was about Venezuela, and its double standard regarding asylums and Human Rights. And the the case of Nelson Bocaranda. That’s it.
You seem to assume to much about two persons you barely know. Why should I be amazed? Basically the same approach you have regarding Venezuela.
Oh, I think we have a lot to use for standing up. In both legs. Sorry to break your hopes about it.
Sure, a typo. Of course…
And Castro’s brother, Raul, is running the country, and Maduro, handpicked by Chávez before his death is running the country. And even after dead, Chávez is literally worshiped. Chávez’ image played a big role in the campaign, and still his relatives have a bunch of positions in govt. So, even if your previous message was a typo, you are showing again your ignorance of the local reality.
Again, you are attacking me, trying to imply I get paid. I am writing here with my real name, answering to anonymous trollies like you, who ignore a lot but are full of pre-fed talking points. If you really can prove somebody is paying me to write all this, go for it. You won’t be able to.
You claim I am spamming, just because you don’t like the facts. I am posting long messages, with sources, I am posting about the real situation of the Venezuelans, about what’s going there, not what propaganda says. How is that spamming? It seems that you don’t like freedom of speech when others contradict you.
That’s a lie.
Another lie.
If you can prove, based on anything I have ever written on the Internet during the last 13 years, that I am a neoliberal, I will apologize publicly and won’t ever write another word here on BoingBoing related to Venezuelan politics. Come on, do it. Prove you are not lying. Prove that you are not just insulting me because you don’t like the facts, and you don’t care at all about Venezuelans and their plights, you are only obsessed about sticking it to the US, or at least, about the appearance of doing it, while selling them oil so they can go and invade other countries.
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And, your whole message stinks of privilege. You, from your anonymity and safety in a developed country, are trying to shut down a minority view. You are not even pretending to debate anymore, you are just accusing without evidence, slandering and committing character assassination because you don’t like my opinions and you can’t claim the facts I have posted previously are lies.
You, from your privilege, of being a native English speaker, are acting arrogantly, trying to shut down a conversation, trying to silence me, ignoring completely that almost 7 million of Venezuelans said they were fed up with the monstrous incompetence of this govt. You are ignoring the suffering of the relatives of more than 180.000 dead people due to violence, since the beginning of the Chávez era. You are ignoring the dread and impotence of those imprisoned inside the deathly Venezuelan prisons, where men die like flies and the most violent thugs thrive. Where govt can kill you and 50 other inmates with no consequences, our penitentiary minister can keep telling her witty rape jokes and assaulting people as she please. You are ignoring the daily struggle to get your work done when you have no electricity several times a day, almost every day. You don’t know, and it’s obvious that you don’t want to know, you don’t care and you don’t want to care. You just want to shut me up and people like me, the people that really have to live the consequences of the stupidity and inefficiency, unlike you, cheering from your cozy chair .
What you are doing is shameful, and it’s simply bullying.
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As usual, the comments on this subject matter have gotten repetitive and hostile. Please simmer down, everyone.
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