This kind of sentence, stated as fact, is what drives me crazy. “Chased down”?
What does chased down mean? Followed at a distance? Or actively “ran him down”. You seem to imply the latter based on your subsequent portrayal of Martin as a scared victim defending himself who “stood his ground”. But Zimmerman said he followed at a distance, was returning to his car, and Martin came back and attacked him. That’s not forced to “take action”. That’s something completely different, and not “manslaughter” by any definition. Yeah–Zimmerman’s word. But the evidence doesn’t prove otherwise by a long shot. It’s plausible. Yet—you KNOW otherwise? To the point of stating it as an absolute certainty, and base your indictment of Zimmerman on that certainty?
Time after time in these threads, people post these at best, dubious conjectures of the events as if completely factual–as if they were standing there watching-- then build their case from that non-existent foundation. Quit doing that. At least show some goddamn self-awareness and sprinkle in a few "in my opinion"s and "maybe"s before you declare someone a murderer.
Good for you, the way you found one sentence in that long comment to use to justify your belief that we can simply ignore those who say that white supremacy acquitted Zimmerman. You found a way to retreat back into the bliss that is ignorance (“ignore” being the operative, active meaning there).
Jesus. That “one sentence” was used as the justification of the conclusion (“manslaughter by any definition”) that followed. That wasn’t clear? It’s was kind of an important sentence since everything that came after (“He took action that forced a man to defend himself”) was built on the premise that Zimmerman chased down Martin and Martin was forced to defend himself. That premise is not in any way confirmable and is at the very least no more plausible then the alternative–that Martin came back and attacked him. But it was stated as fact.
You can decry the racial profiling that led to Zimmerman following Martin. You can criticize the stupid stand-your-ground laws. You can question the wisdom of concealed carry laws. I do too.
But, if insisting on basic rules of logical argument (for example, not basing very serious conclusions on completely conjectural foundations) is your definition of “retreating into ignorance”—then there’s just no point in talking to you.
The parallels to the reactions between white and black people to the OJ trial are shocking. I remember being in high school when the OJ verdict was played over the loudspeaker (I lived in LA). The entire black population of the school got up and cheered and went into the hallways. Everyone else sat stunned.
If Zimmerman had been in California, he would have been found guilty. The idea that you can shoot someone because you feel threatened after intentionally placing yourself in a situation where you might feel threatened is asinine.
White supremacy did not acquit Zimmerman however. Stupid laws in Florida acquitted him. But white solidarity is certainly keeping him from being blamed. We start making excuses because slogans like “white supremacy acquitted Zimmerman” make us feel like racists. And of course some of us react by trying to defend this moronic vigilante.
But it’s white supremacy that helps to ACCOUNT for the Stand Your Ground law. It lies behind it. And in front of it, in the form of racially disproportionate sentencing on its basis (even though it didn’t technically play a part in GZ’s case).
Oh for shit’s sake, here we go again, blaming black people for being more aware than white people about the facts of white supremacy. “Blame the victim” much?
What’s going to make things better is when white people in general wake the fuck up, not black people in general. Most of them are already awake, by necessity.
It’s these kind of casually made assertions, as if they are prima facae, that undercut the very valid arguments about racism and vigilantism by mixing in either complete conjecture or downright misrepresentation about the shooting itself. You make it sound like Zimmerman just pulled the gun out and shot him when he looked at him funny. Maybe it happened that way… but that’s not what the acquittal was based on. There was simply tons of reasonable doubt, and the jury couldn’t disprove the plausibility of Zimmerman’s accounting that he was jumped by Martin after (very stupidly) following him at a distance. Not so sure he would have been convicted in any court that applied the basic idea of “innocent until proven guilty” and “reasonable doubt”.
I didn’t realize that the people who made this sign were the victim of this crime. It was my understanding that that this young man and his family were the victims.
Further, I stated that the more the black community blames the white community, the worse the white community’s rationalization is going to get. In no way are you going to convince a bunch of people that someone is innocent by telling them that they, as a group, are responsible, directly or indirectly, for the perpetrator’s actions. I was not blaming the victim. I was simply stating that this form of argument is a truly ineffective way to affect change.
[quote=“milliefink, post:111, topic:6137”]
But it’s white supremacy that helps to ACCOUNT for the Stand Your Ground law.
[/quote] Small point of clarification: Although the media repeatedly harped on Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law even after they were corrected, it was never raised by either the prosecution or defense in the course of the trial as it was deemed not to apply, and rightly so, to Zimmerman’s actions. I would argue that it actually did apply to Martin, but Martin wasn’t the one charged with a crime, and IANAL.
"Again, I think the accusation that all white people are supporting it is only in your head. I certainly never saw the accusation made in the thread. "
Then you’re not paying attention. Or did you miss the part where I was compared to David Duke?
As far as the “culture of white supremacy”, yes it exists in some parts of the country, but there’s also been pretty big advances as well. What I take exception to is the belief that only white people are responsible for the problems of racism in America. Spike Lee, Michael Eric Dyson, Earl Ofari Hutchinson among others have made the claim.
I agree that identifying racial injustice and having an open dialouge is the best way to eradicate it, I just realize that it’s more than just a “white” problem. Unfortunately, some think otherwise.
Speaking as a Jew whose people have been oppressed, discriminated against and hunted for two thousand years, join the f’ing club. I try not to blame Christian Supremacy every time some kid gets kidnapped and tortured to death for being Jewish because lumping together the 70% of the people who aren’t racist with the 30% is just going to make them defensive and certainly isn’t going to win any friends.
But the trial didn’t happen in a vacuum. SYG is a factor, though, because the police initially didn’t even arrest GZ, for over a month, because they thought he’d acted within the realms of SYG. Also, if GZ was aware of SYG (I don’t know if he was or not, but it seems likely), he would have felt less at risk in shooting TM. And in the future, more black and brown people are going to die at the hands of others who feel less at risk of prosecution in killing them because of SYG laws. Again, the trial itself isn’t the only phenomena and series of events at play here in terms of white supremacy.
And btw, in the recent American context, most Jews have joined the white club. Oppression in the U.S. that targets Jewish people is not institutionalized, nor does it infiltrate the practices of daily life, to anywhere near the extent that white supremacy targets people of color, especially young black men (who would dearly WISH they could “join the f’ing club” that Jewish Americans have been pretty much fully welcomed into). Anyway, playing a round of Oppression Olympics won’t get us anywhere.
Out of context, this is true. However, this post stated that “White supremacy acquitted Zimmerman” which implies that every single juror member, the legislature of Florida and likely the bulk of the voting population in Florida is part of the white supremacy movement. That seems like an awfully wide net to cast.
Jews only started to be accepted in the US only after some Evangelicals decided we were necessary in Israel to bring back Jesus. Antisemitism in the US is still bad. Want to know how many times I heard Jews were to blame for the Financial crisis? Or that Jews are trying to control the world? Or called a kike? Jesse Jackson called New York Hymietown for goodness sakes.
Of course, it is nothing compared to Europe where countries like Greece actually have neo-Nazis in government.
[quote=“milliefink, post:121, topic:6137”]
But the trial didn’t happen in a vacuum. SYG is a factor, though, because the police initially didn’t even arrest GZ, for over a month, because they thought he’d acted within the realms of SYG.
[/quote] Then the fault was with the police, not Forida’s Stand Your Ground law. I believe Martin confronted Zimmerman in self-defense because he was being stalked and reasonably believed he was in danger, just as I would have done. But he also had the opportunity to run away. Without Forida’s Stand Your Ground law or one similar to it, that would be illegal. That a law may be misinterpreted by the police isn’t an argument against the law itself, it’s a problem of enforcement. Any person, regardless of the color of their skin, deserves to be able to stand their ground if they believe that’s their best protection. Racist enforcement doesn’t change that.
Wrong. In the 1940s, they were recipients of “the largest affirmative action program in U.S. history,” the GI Bill. They have, by and large, joined the white club.
Sure, but again, it’s also nothing compared to what black and brown people face at the hands of ongoing white supremacy.
Have you been stopped for driving while Jewish, or shopping while Jewish? Are your people unjustly arrested and incarcerated at vastly disproportionate rates, like black men are? Are they relatively less free to defend themselves with SYG laws? And so on.
The reason not to play Oppression Olympics in this way is that you’re losing.
