And funnily enough, it came on the heels of her winning an Oscar for Monster’s Ball, an excellent film. Berry is a stellar actress. it’s not her fault she ended up in a bad film, it happens to lots of great actors.
Also, lest we forget… it’s not the only comic film she’s been in…
That might well be - but I’d argue that male superheroes always outnumbered female ones to a huge degree, all the way to Flash Gordon, Mandrake, Phantom, Tarzan etc. In any case, the problem is not whether this or that character existed, but rather if this or that kept selling, reliably and continuously. Comic book publishers have always been pretty ruthless in chasing all markets; just look at the current wave of multi-ethnic heroes squarely aimed at specific minorities (the abovementioned Kamala Khan, Amadeus Cho / Hulk, the various attempts at Latino Spiderman, Falcon / Cap etc etc, just to stay in the Marvel area). Anything to make a buck! If it looked like a “boys’ club” in certain periods, it’s probably simply because boys were the ones who could be counted on to pay for the stuff. Is it unconceivable that girls might have preferred books or other entertainment at various points in time? Do we absolutely all have to like the same cake?
Well, yeah - like saying there are no female superhero movies except the ones that are there. The overwhelming majority is still set in Japan, or in a “japanized” version of whichever fantasy world it is set in. Like most US comic books are set in the US. Is that discrimination towards the rest of the world, or just writers sticking to what they know?
This attempt at invoking cultural appropriation in the discussion is, frankly, quite pathetic, as well as completely irrelevant to the subject at hand.
No, I implied that I’d like to see more interesting arguments than “there were X movies with females and Y with males”, which has been repeated ad nauseam. Tell me something about how the character is difficult to make believable on screen in the classic (and extremely sexist) outfit. Tell me something about the difficulty of adapting the source material. Tell me which story arcs have been instrumental in defining the onscreen character. Tell me how they finally managed to make a good DC movie after so many flops. Tell me about Lynda Carter’s legacy, which certainly played a role (not unlike Bill Bixby and Lou Ferrigno made it difficult to reprise the Hulk on different terms for a very long time). There are so many angles to “why WW took ages to get a movie” than “because it’s about a female”, that it’s so much more annoying to keep reading the same thing over and over.
Then by all means, log off and tune it out.
Problem solved.
Not gonna happen… but maybe the people saying (or implying) such should hold their breath while they wait.
The bottom line is that if it were not for the toxic patriarchy’s influence over all of society and our perceptions thereof, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation in the first place.
Male characters outnumber female characters in pretty much every genre because historically, white Cis-gendered males are the ones doing the most of the writing; with a strong focus on themselves to the near exclusion of everyone else - when you tend to see everyone but yourself as ‘window dressing’ or a mere means to an end, that’s what happens Larry.
Huh. My roommate and I are the complete opposite (though her more than me). She liked GG1, but loved 2 so much she went back and saw it 8 times. I thought 1 was just a little rough and enjoyed 2’s playfulness.
She was super excited about WW, but tapped me to leave about a third of the way through because it was so dull. I had lower expectations, but I didn’t hesitate to leave I was so bored out of my mind.
I would be all over a quality adaptation of the Honor Harrington books, but I doubt I’m ever going to see it.
[quote=“toyg, post:63, topic:103354”]
There are so many angles to “why WW took ages to get a movie” than “because it’s about a female”, that it’s so much more annoying to keep reading the same thing over and over.[/quote]
If you’re really interested in an informed understanding of the origins, trials, and tribulations of the WW franchise, I suggest reading historian Jill Lepore’s excellent book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-History-of-Wonder-Woman/dp/1925106322
The comic book WW was a political minefield, representing by design a number of feminist (ie, commonsense) ideas that even today are strongly opposed in the US, and when representations were toned down (as in the TV series) the character became less interesting.
I had low expectations after the other recent DC movies. But to my surprise, I really liked it. My only major criticism is that the big bad fight at the end wasn’t quite as good as the two hours that led up to it.
WW did. [quote=“toyg, post:63, topic:103354”]
just look at the current wave of multi-ethnic heroes squarely aimed at specific minorities
[/quote]
Or people who recognize that our world isn’t so lily white and male and appreciates narratives from perspectives other than their own. I’ve been reading both Ms. Marvel and Black Panther and both are fantastic.
So being inclusive is just “making a buck”? Seriously man, do you really think that when the industry is selling to YOU and your demographic exclusively, it’s about “art”, but when it’s selling to the rest of us, it’s pure greed? Are you forgetting that girls and young women were historically constructed and understood as the ultimate consumers? [quote=“toyg, post:63, topic:103354”]
it’s probably simply because boys were the ones who could be counted on to pay for the stuff.
[/quote]
Historically, teens of both genders drove consumerism since the baby boom, actually. Teen girls made the Beatles a phenomenon, for one. Girls have spent just as much money and boys since the invention of the teenager. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t make it less true.
Oh! I get it… AMERICAN WOMEN ARE A FOREIGN COUNTRY! Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Are you the only consumer here? Are you the only person that matters, that you get to dictate who speaks and who doesn’t. Get over yourself. You’re not the only person here. If you don’t want to read this article, go read another one. It’s a big BBS. But most certainly, STOP TELLING WOMEN TO SHUT UP. [quote=“d_r, post:67, topic:103354”]
reading historian Jill Lepore’s excellent book
[/quote]
Oh, but it’s by a woman, shouldn’t she shut up? What can her years of research into Marsten, his odd family, and strange academic career possibly tell us about the feminist roots of WW? /s
(Though I love the rest of your arguments too, I thought that line deserved particular emphasis.)
Even if we look specifically at comics. In the early days (when MAD was a comic and before the comics code) there were several romance comics, their way of appealing to women. And Archie Comics has for most of existence relied on the female demographic.
Pfft youre just a fake geek girl and know nothing about history or institutionalised sexism! Next you’ll be telling me that Rey come perilously close to being just a “final girl” and the girls/plot of GoTG2 dont actually pass the Bechdal test! Man what do you broads want! You’re never happy!!
Excellent point, which I neglected to mention the first time in my emphatic agreement:
Teen and preteen girls are the biggest consumer group in the nation, and they are why boy bands are even still ‘a thing’ at all.
*shudderz
Two words: Squirrel girl
edit: and just for fun have cameos of all the other marvel actors. It would be fabulous
Yes, and I’m talking anout comics here. Why is it ok to say the Beatles’ sales were driven by teenage females but not ok that comic books were driven by teenage males?
There is a reason for the term “blaxploitation”. Art and commercialism are intrinsically linked in a pop medium like comics. Most studies of the period explicitly say there were editorial decisions made in order to expand sales here or there, and I’m pretty sure Joe Quesada himself would happilu tell you that. A lot of storylines involving these characters are beyond preposterous, so art has clearly taken a backseat at various stages. There is nothing shameful about saying it.
I’m not telling anyone to shut up btw; I’m just saying the arguments are trite. Including this one.
True. But they replaced that content with funk.
The theme song highly amuses me today.
You’re ignoring that girls read comics, too. Not just comics about women superheroes. Women have always been involved in geek culture, from the beginning and we’re tired of the erasures. Women and young girls have driven popular culture as much, if not at times MORE than boys. And often, we’re still ignored as being part of that. Fandom is far more diverse than you or many other men give it credit for and always has been. You’re going to have to accept that, because it’s a fact of life.
Yet, you only find that problematic when it’s not white dudes being “exploited”? Funny that.
Also, my PhD was in history on a topic related to commercial popular culture. So duh. I know that.
Yes you did - whether or not that was your INTENT is quite another matter of course. But the first line of your original comment was indeed telling us to shut up. Calling a feminist discussion about a film (that you haven’t even seen) “feminist chest thumping” is indeed telling us to shut up. No one forced you to read the article or participate in this thread. As I said, there are plenty of other wonderful things on BB that you can go read. The entire internet is FULL of articles that are not about women, and you’re welcome to go read those, and hell, even make links here to further a discussion on that topic if you want. I’m sure many of us would appreciate it and participate, because many of us have diverse and various interests.
I could say the same of your arguments. It’s classic circular reasoning: most comic readers are male, so comics must appeal to males. And since comics must appeal to males, most comic readers wind up being male.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
And, if you’ll kindly excuse my language, that is bullshit.
In the comic industry’s desperate chase after their stereotypically masculine demographic, their blinders do not and will not let them see that there’s an equally large female demographic, just waiting to be invited to the party*. And far too often, the “boys’ club” attitude serves to alienate these women readers.
The comic I just posted is years old. I’m sure you’ll dismiss it as trite and repetitive. Well, for the love of Deadpool, if you’re so tired of hearing the complaints, can you possibly imagine how tired we are of having to make them, over and over and over again??? Yet progress, if any, creeps forward at a glacial pace.
Well, there’s no longer any remotely reasonable excuse to say, “women don’t like comics, women don’t like superheroes.” Wonder Woman has, beyond a shadow of a doubt, proven that we women hunger to see ourselves as heroines of well-told tales. Not only that, there’s a metric truckload of money in it for those who can do it and do it well. So why should we be satisfied with just one decent movie (which is what you seem to be saying.) Nope. One superheroine movie isn’t going to suffice. We want more.
And we’re not gonna shut up about it.
Let the industry ignore that at its peril.
*Yes, I know that there are girls and women who didn’t “wait to be invited” into comic-book-land, my longboxes prove it. But I’m trying to make a more generalized point here. 
##Say it girl, say it.
It takes an astounding lack of self awareness (or a really keen desire to fail-trolley) to start off by making an obviously incendiary declarative statement about being “tired of feminist chest thumping,” and then when called out on that, back-peddling to say that he never told anyone to shut up… when via all his passive-aggressive circular reasoning bullshit arguments that’s exactly the message he was sending.
I tells ya it just Make Me Wanna Holla, not keep quiet.
