Why it took so long to get a Wonder Woman movie

[anon91351441]

@Mindysan33

You’re ignoring that girls read comics, too.

No, but you continue to ignore the simple fact that female readers attracted to the superhero genres have always been a minority, at times even vanishingly small. What’s so wrong with that? In Japan the market is clearly segmented and labelled, nobody complains that this or that genre does not attract or represent people not in the targeted segment. Why is it so wrong to admit that American superheroes are de-facto similarly segmented, and respect this fact? There are plenty of more “inclusive” graphic novels in other genres, why is it shameful for superheroes to go another way, if that is the lucrative choice?

@Mindysan33

Yet, you only find that problematic

You keep projecting and putting words in my mouth. Please tell me where I said it’s problematic, i keep saying it’s how the whole market operates, like any other pop market. “WhiteMaleTeenagexploitation” is not defined in superhero comics simply because it’s default, because it pays better, because it’s what historically drives the market - a fact I accept and that you find somehow horrifying. Whenever other demographics are targeted instead, the trend gets a label. Some of these trends survive and develop, many just die because the demo is not interested. End of.

if the problem is that I’m not supposed to read this, then take it up with BB labelling “why it took so long to make the WW film”, a title that does not really scream gender studies. I simply noted that some of the arguments in the “video” are trite, whether I agree or not. I get it, you love repeating them over and over. I find it boring. Does that make me a monster? That’s not very inclusive of you.

[Mindysan33]

@toyg

but you continue to ignore the simple fact that female readers attracted to the superhero genres have always been a minority, at times even vanishingly small.

Please post sales figures, based on gender for the last 60 or so years to confirm this. Because I don’t think it’s the case.[quote=“toyg, post:82, topic:103354”]
if the problem is that I’m not supposed to read this
[/quote]

You’re welcome to read it and comment. You’re not welcome to shut others down. If you have no interest in what you deem “feminist chest thumping” then read something else. [quote=“toyg, post:82, topic:103354”]
I simply noted that some of the arguments in the “video” are trite, whether I agree or not.
[/quote]

That’s an argument you’re welcome to make, but how about not telling others to discuss it?[quote=“toyg, post:82, topic:103354”]
Does that make me a monster?
[/quote]

Now who is projecting. No one called you a monster. They asked you not to tell us to shut up. [quote=“toyg, post:82, topic:103354”]
That’s not very inclusive of you.
[/quote]

Okay. Have a nice one then.

[anon91351441]

@Melizmatic

I tells ya it just Make Me Wanna Holla, not keep quiet.

That’s great, after all this is a forum and not an echo chamber. I would be extremely stupid, after all these years, to ignore what the predominant thoughts are around here or to expect anyone to “shut up”. My original post was supposed to be an invite to post something a bit more elaborate than a video repeating what has already been said in umpteen reviews and comments for years, something related to the cinematography and adaptation process more than to gender-studies trivia. I knew I was driving trollies a bit, of course. Some comments had interesting links, which wouldn’t have appeared without me driving trollies; but I don’t think I lacked of respect to anyone at any point in the conversation nor asked to suppress anyone’s thoughts.

[milliefink]

This guy right here, and the recent proliferation of his ilk, is a big reason why I’m pretty much done with this place.

[Mindysan33]

No one has a problem with you taking exception to the article or disagreeing with it. It’s your right. You can even think it’s boring. By saying, as you did, that it should not be said or heard, is not cool.

@toyg

I knew I was driving trollies a bit, of course.

You know, women are constantly told to keep quiet online. Some of us have been doxxed, threatened, and bullied by trollies for daring to share our views and opinions. How about you NOT contribute to that shit and treat us as you’d like to be treated. [quote=“toyg, post:84, topic:103354”]
I don’t think I lacked of respect
[/quote]

Except you did. driving trollies someone shows a fundamental lack of respect for the other person, that you don’t believe that they are on your level of intelligence or worth your time to engage as a fellow human being.

[Melizmatic]

@toyg

That’s great, after all this is a forum and not an echo chamber.

Multiple people disagree with your obvious and disingenuous bait, so it’s an echo chamber?

Whatever you need to tell yourself to get by, dude.

@toyg

I would be extremely stupid

Your words, not mine, yo.

@toyg

I knew I was driving trollies a bit, of course.

Thanks for admitting that; it’s a genuine breath of fresh air to see someone actually own their shit for once, and for that I give you credit.

[wsmcneil]

@toyg

The passive-aggressiveness here is off the chart. Where did I say that? Where did I ever implied that? Of course what I say is my opinion

Right.

Your entry into this thread announced that you found what you described as “feminist chest thumping” to be tiresome. You explained that everybody else liked Wonder Woman (a film you have not seen) for entirely the wrong reasons. Then you described why we should actually all be grateful that there are so few action films featuring female leads.

Oh, but you’re certainly not telling anybody else how or what to think. You’re just expressing an opinion.

Right.

Sorry, no. Everything you have said in this thread follows a common theme – you’re telling everybody else here that they are wrong, that you’re the only one who knows what he’s talking about, that everybody else’s experience is invalid, and that their voices and ideas are not worthy of being heard.

And when you get called out on it, when all these other people try to explain to you that no, we have reasons to feel the way we do about this, instead of trying to learn from them, and instead of taking a moment to reflect and wonder why nobody here agrees with you, you decide to double down, and choose to be indignant.

I never said nobody else is entitled to an opinion.

No, but absolutely everything you have said screams that you believe their opinions and experiences to be worthless. You’re attempting to retreat to “that’s just, like, my opinion man” when your “opinion” belittles and erases the real experience of millions of people for whom this movie resonates; when your opinion dismisses others’ genuine concerns and frustrations and informed observations as “trite”; when you relentlessly attack and disdain everybody else’s observations and ignorant and less than your own.

You don’t understand what these people are telling you, or why this film impacts them they way it does. Fine. You could choose to recognize that there’s something you don’t understand, and you could try to learn from it. You could choose to respect the experience and feelings of others, even when you don’t personally share them. But instead, you’ve chosen to dismiss them as invalid, and attack them over and over.

And then you choose to get upset when the people you’re dismissing point out that they would prefer not to be dismissed. Because obviously we’re being the jerks, here.

Right.

[anon91351441]

@Mindysan33

Please post sales figures, based on gender

Meh, random googling will bring up tons of material like this from the Guardian, noticing the recent INCREASE in female readership and the fact that is still on average a minority, albeit less so with every year (females are usually older readers, which usually means less superhero-oriented, which means those percentages are probably a bit lower for the specific genre, but whatever). Great! Things are changing, aren’t we happy? Why do we have to go on and on about the past?

@Mindysan33

You’re not welcome to shut others down.

I didn’t shut anyone down, I criticized the posted video as not original. And in return I was flamed and insulted. But sure, if this had been labelled “the social background behind the lack of WW films”, I wouldn’t have watched, because I’ve had my fair share of that already.

@Mindysan33

No one called you a monster

Well, the meme a post above this is not very flattering, nor the one about blinders, nor many other attacks as self-entitled White Bastard throughout. That was depressing, for BB. trollies used to be treated better 'round here, with more panache.

[Mindysan33]

All this…

[Mindysan33]

@toyg

Why do we have to go on and on about the past?

Yes. History is irrelevant.

@toyg

I didn’t shut anyone down,

That might not have been your intent, but that is precisely what you’ve done this entire thread. As @wsmcneil noted above, you’re basically equated your opinion with facts, and many people’s facts with opinions.

@toyg

Well, the meme a post above this is not very flattering, nor the one about blinders, nor many other attacks as self-entitled White Bastard throughout. That was depressing, for BB. trollies used to be treated better 'round here, with more panache.

You called yourself a trolley, BTW. None of what was posted attributed monsterdom to you, merely that you’re unwilling to listen to others.

[ETA] As for the Guardian article, it is basically just about digital readership and more recent readership, and says little about the golden age of comics. It even ignores how women were central to the popularity of successful comics like the Sandman. Just a note, the world of comics didn’t begin in 2000.

[wsmcneil]

@Mindysan33

[Bender gif]

Hahahaha. This was, in fact, my Hallowe’en constume last year. Excellent.

[MalevolentPixy]

@Mindysan33

Women have always been involved in geek culture, from the beginning and we’re tired of the erasures.

This, so much. Which is exactly how we noticed that when we were quiet “good girls” like some people here want us to be, we got nothing, but boys who threw tantrums got things. “But these boys buy our merchandise and go to our conventions” said the industry, ignoring the fact that a little girl might beg for a superhero and be given Barbie instead, because boys weren’t buying stuff, parents were. And maybe both parents weren’t geeks so they bought what they thought a little girl wanted or should have. Thus, all the little girls who made do with Barbie playing WW were assumed not really to be interested.

Then those girls grew up, got their own money and spent what they could on geek stuff for the short time that own money lasted, but “Mom’s things” were forced away over “kids needs” (though somehow Dad got to keep his toys). And their daughters grew up having to make do with Barbies, because aunts and uncles and grandparents didn’t understand and Mom didn’t have a lot of money she could budget towards a toy that no longer existed due to lack of sales. But the did have that one piece of wisdom to share: quiet “good girls” like some people here want us to be, we got nothing, but boys who threw tantrums got things. So those daughters and their daughters took advantage of shifting societal norms that said they didn’t have to get married and have kids so soon, that you didn’t have to give up your loves. And they began buying. They began showing up at the events in numbers, rather than just a lucky one or two who could be safely ignored. And suddenly the whiny boys got nervous because there were girls here, but they’d never consumed media with healthy relationships and unlike the girls, hadn’t learned for generations to roll their eyes at such depictions, couldn’t handle being called out on it.

So, yeah, we’re “chest thumping” because we figured out that’s the only thing that works. And don’t blame us, we learned it watching the boys.

[hecep]

@toyg

Why do we have to go on and on about the past?

“Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” (George Santayana)

[Mindysan33]

Also, I want to note that getting to ignore history is a privilege. Many, many people do not have that luxury that they can ignore the progress we’ve made, because slipping back will negatively impact their lives. Given how much rolling back of the clock we’ve seen in recent years already, keeping these discussions on gender and race and sexuality front and center means reminding people that not too long ago, things were much worse for many of us and that we will not go back.

[d_r]

[mcv]

@toyg

She was in charge for a relatively brief period in the late Claremont years

Brief period? Storm has been leader of the X-Men for my entire youth. And it was the golden age for the X-Men. I’d love a series of movies following the Claremont years. That is the period that made the X-Men into Marvel’s biggest superhero team. Only after Claremont left did it all turn to crap.

[mcv]

@Mangochin

Two words, She Hulk.

She Hulk is a very interesting character. The only thing I don’t like about her is her name: the hulk, but female. She’s way more than that. Her superhero name does not do her justice.

[Mangochin]

“Hulk Lawyer” doesn’t do her justice either, but it has sitcom potential!

[mcv]

@toyg

The fact that the US comic-book-superhero industry was built for (and largely by) male teenagers. Complaining about that is like complaining that most Japanese books feature people from Japan.

No, complaining about that is complaining that male-controlled industries tend to exclude women. Wonder Woman was created by a woman for women. She started out as a feminist icon, until male chauvinists took over and put her in the kitchen where she belongs. There’s been some horrible misogyny in some Wonder Woman comics.

The men in control were the ones who decided that comics had to be by and for men and buys, and not by and for women and girls. This thing you identify is not an excuse why it’s okay that things are as they are, it’s the primary symptom of the core problem, and the cause of all the problems that follow from this.

[milliefink]

@mcv

There’s been some horrible misogyny in some Wonder Woman comics.

Too troo.