Why (or why not) to vote for Jill Stein

[d_r]

@Medievalist

You’re projecting. You know that your rationalization for voting Democratic (that it’s the way to win) lays in shattered ruin about your feet, so you’re blaming others for your party’s failure. But owning that failure is the way to succeed in the future.

I’m not. I’m not saying anything I didn’t say before the election, or in 2012, or in 2008, or in 1980.

Of course the Democratic party and Clinton and her organization need to own the loss. But also people who voted 3rd party in places where that counted should own their part of the loss. If you voted L in PA or G in Wisconsin, your vote was a vote for Trump. If he was your second choice, fine.

We are a 2 party system. That isn’t going to change, at least not for a long time, probably not in your lifetime, and if it does change the 3rd party is not going to be the Greens. The way to change the candidates we have is to reform the two real parties from within. When moderate Republicans abandon the party because of the rise of people like Cruz, that makes it easier for a Trump to show up. When progressive Democrats leave their party for the Greens, that is that many fewer people to push from within for change. Sanders understood that, which is why he waged his fight this year from within the party, but a year of that could not counter 4 years of Clinton doing the same thing. This time.

Either goofing around with 3rd parties is meaningful or it isn’t. If it is, then own your role in what happened this week. If it isn’t, then own the fact that you have decided to withdraw from participating in the political process. I’m sorry if it bothers you to hear this.

[emo_pinata]

I agree with this about battleground states. It’s one thing to vote 3rd party for local and state elections, and please please win some seats in the house - but you need to work with one of the two major parties to get the election regulation required for a third party to ever be viable.

[Medievalist]

You’re making great points, but your conclusion is not supported by your premises.

I am owning my actions. I’m damn proud of them.

I voted against Trump in the Republican primary. The Republican party here is quite small, so my vote counts more there. I persuaded Republicans in battleground states to vote Libertarian. I persuaded Democrats in states where Clinton had a total lock to vote Green. I admitted to all the real criticisms of the Greens (although not the fake Internet ones like the antivaxxer canard against Dr. Stein). And I voted Green in an election where I correctly judged that it was my optimal choice and could neither harm Clinton or help Trump.

And I also warned my ideological competitors that I’d driven for hours through PA, WV, MO, KS and NC and that it looked like Trump was going to win those states. I even did that right on this site, check my comment history if you don’t remember that. I also said Clinton would win my state, DE, and she did. I was seeing things clearly, although at the time I deeply and sincerely hoped I wasn’t.

@d_r

Either goofing around with 3rd parties is meaningful or it isn’t.

I’m not goofing around; I’m deadly serious, it’s a character flaw. But frankly, from my perspective, you were and still are.

Let’s do a little math. If you get one Green voter to vote Democrat, that is one vote for Clinton, a tiny increase, and a larger hit to Greens who are supposedly fellow liberals. If you get one Trump voter to vote Democrat, you get one less for Trump, one more for Clinton, for double the effectiveness at no cost to theoretically allied groups. So the Democrat-led smear campaign on Jill Stein was a waste of goodwill and of resources that could have been used to court Trump voters, a profound tactical and strategic error. I’m sorry if it bothers you to hear that, no sarcasm intended, but you need to internalize it. The Democrats turned on Greens because they looked easy to beat up, and that was a weak bully move that backfired. It’s time to drop it and focus on talking to rural people in crumbling factory towns instead.

Green voters don’t have anything to be ashamed of. Trump voters do, and anyone who voted for Clinton in a safe state does. Claiming otherwise is just savaging your potential allies and proving to them that Democrats are still enemies of the human environment. From my point of view, you’re looking for excuses for your tribe’s failure to dominate, and not actually achieving anything meaningful despite all the effort you’ve poured into it.

[d_r]

@Medievalist

From my point of view, you’re looking for excuses for your tribe’s failure to dominat

I’ve made it quite clear that I’m not. Read my damn posts. I’ve owned - on behalf of my party - our blame in this, even though my state did go 65% for Clinton. You’re however rejection all responsibility for your own “tribe”. But that’s the idea of voting 3rd party, isn’t it: you can pat yourself on your back for civil engagement and ideological purity while not taking any real responsibility for your actions or lack thereof.

Good on you for voting in the Republican primary, but that’s also easy if you’re a Green and there is no actual competition for the top spot.

[Aloisius]

@d_r

Of course the Democratic party and Clinton and her organization need to own the loss. But also people who voted 3rd party in places where that counted should own their part of the loss. If you voted L in PA or G in Wisconsin, your vote was a vote for Trump. If he was your second choice, fine.

I thought the whole point of people voting third-party was to elect Trump so that after the destruction of liberal America, we run to support Greens or Libertarians who were “right” all along.

[Medievalist]

@d_r

But that’s the idea of voting 3rd party, isn’t it: you can pat yourself on your back for civil engagement and ideological purity while not taking any real responsibility for your actions or lack thereof.

You’re still in attack mode. You’re still not listening.

I never did anything that hurt your chances, in fact I worked against my own party’s candidate and voted for yet another party. I increased your likelihood of winning. Why are you still attacking me, still trying to score rhetorical points on me?

I understand that you believe in the two party system and you are using that ideology to justify the Party’s failure to run Sanders, your real candidate, and to justify all the hard and valuable work you do for the party machine. I get that.

I am a registered Republican, which gives me the right to vote in the Republican primary. I voted Green in the general because that was the best thing I could do for my species - I have a higher loyalty than party. I lost worse than you did, but I did it on purpose, because it was the best loss I could get. I am unhappy with the outcome but yes I am proud that I correctly figured out the situation and did my best. The Clinton campaign failed to do either of those two things and that has literally nothing to do with me - I tried to help.

Democrats lost because Democrats didn’t vote. Republicans won because Republicans voted. It’s that simple.

3rd parties were busy bungling their own issues and had nothing to do with the Democrats failure to get their own party members to vote. Antagonizing 3rd party voters is a losing strategy. You can be bigger than that, because you can win if you are bigger than that, and winning is important to you.

[emo_pinata]

FWIW, I’m mostly on your side. I think you are missing a step to achieve a true third party option in the US system in favor of ideology, but for what you are doing you are doing it the right way.

[Medievalist]

Having someone mostly on my side is the best I can ask for!

[emo_pinata]

I’m acknowledging I disagree, but since I had something positive to say I did.

[Medievalist]

This is a good week for that. Thank you.

I’m trying to stay out of the really ragey threads so that I won’t antagonize those who disagree with me on the significance of the election. They don’t need more grief.

Good night, all.

[d_r]

I’m not in any kind of mode I’ve not been in for decades w/r to 3rd parties. I’m listening, but I haven’t heard you take any responsibility (on behalf of the Greens) for what happened; quite the contrary. Convincing your friends to vote Libertarian wasn’t a positive thing. The existence of the Libertarians gave responsible Republicans an opportunity to avoid holding their nose and voting for Clinton.

[Medievalist]

@d_r

I haven’t heard you take any responsibility (on behalf of the Greens) for what happened; quite the contrary.

I don’t think the Green Party would be real happy with me taking responsibility on their behalf for anything. I am a registered Republican, and I attend more Democratic rallies and speechifyin’ than I do Green meetups. Maybe there’s an actual Green Party person hereabouts you could ask?

I came in here because of the thread title. I wasn’t happy with this being predominantly an anti-green echo chamber, I thought I’d do my fellow BB denizens a favor and take up the defense of Jill Stein, who I rather like. She’d be a great President, in my opinion, although I am aware that you disagree.

Clinton lost because the Clinton campaign failed to get Democratic voters into the voting booths. Full stop. The number of Greens who voted their consciences is dwarfed by the number of Democrats who stayed on the couch.

@d_r

Convincing your friends to vote Libertarian wasn’t a positive thing. The existence of the Libertarians gave responsible Republicans an opportunity to avoid holding their nose and voting for Clinton.

You’ve never met them. My relatives who voted Johnson would vote for Beelzebub before they voted for Clinton. They were going to vote for Trump, who they strongly dislike, but I pointed out to them that Johnson wouldn’t win, so that their issues with his person were not relevant, and their sympathy for Libertarian ideals of egalitarianism, deregulation and personal responsibility made it an ideal protest vote.

Meanwhile the Clinton campaign told them they were racist, deplorable, anti-semitic, mysogynist, ignorant, backwoods losers. They are exactly one of those things - they are rural backwoods folk. They like guns and Jesus and being neighborly. They are nice people, you can depend on them to clean up their yards and pick up your change for you if you drop it. But they’ve been heavily propagandized for decades against Hillary Clinton, and the Clinton campaign failed to counteract that reality.

Anyway, I helped Democrats out by convincing them to vote Johnson. I’m sorry it wasn’t enough, and I mean that sincerely. I did everything I personally could to help Clinton win, because I see her as marginally preferable to Trump, though I’d personally prefer Stein.

You and I quarrel a lot, because we have distinctly different political philosophies, and each of us believes himself to be a pragmatist, and sees the other as an inconsistent ideologue. It is a somewhat irresolvable conflict; it will take a historian looking back a hundred years from now to know who is right.

Today, I will do what is in the reach of my hand, and I will do it with all my might; because there is no work, and no suffering, in the grave, where we are bound.