In the past we’ve discussed the need for election reform and the possibility of a trickle down vote, which is where you rate the candidates in order of choice and as the bottom is eliminated your votes move to your next choice. This would open the possibility for third party candidates without the risk of the greater of two evils. seems about time we make some serious changes to the system.
personally i can’t blame anyone who couldn’t vote for either of the two major party candidates. at least they dared to dream of a better system. Can anyone really claim the Dems don’t hold just as much responsibility for the outcome as the Reps? Don’t get me wrong, I’m f’n sad/dismayed/outraged we ended up with Trump, but I’d argue Hillary is as much to blame as Trump is for these results. These were the two top least liked candidates in US history according to polls. The divide was just too big and the hate on both sides too strong. A broken system leads to a broken country.
Instead of pointing the fingers at our fellow liberals, lets work for some real election reform so we don’t ever have to repeat this debacle.
This is something I agree with, but it’s also the first election I have not voted 3rd party for most of the ticket.
Automatic registration, mail in ballots (and early voting and polls), set federal funds for federal elections, and a ranking style vote instead would be amazing.
Only if you assume that their votes were going to Clinton otherwise.
They weren’t. A big chunk of the Johnson crowd would’ve leant Trump, and a large proportion of both minor parties’ support are likely non-voters if you remove their preferred party.
Green voters aren’t disloyal Democrats. They’re disillusioned Americans voting for what they accurately perceive as the only American party that isn’t advocating climate suicide.
The Greens are the closest thing to Social Democrats that we have in the US. Sanders’ primary run should’ve been instructive to the DNC, as it illustrates that there are a lot more socialist-leaning people out here than the party ever believed.
That’s not how 3rd parties function in the US. They provide a shield: you know you should vote, you don’t want to make the hard choice, so you vote for the 3rd party.
Both the Greens and the Libertarians actively targeted Clinton voters more than they did Trump voters this cycle. For Greens that is obvious, but while Libertarians in general are moderate free market Republicans who like to smoke dope, in this election Clinton would have been closer to their fundamental beliefs than an authoritarian like Trump. In the absence of this ballot option it is possible that a quarter or even half of Johnson’s supporters would have stayed home rather than vote for Clinton, but the ones who did come out and vote would, alongside the #nevertrump republicans who chose the L option, probably come to the same conclusion Libertarian VP candidate Bill Weld did this year, deciding Trump was “unfit” and Clinton was “perfectly reputable”.
I doubt the Green voters in the states where they were spoilers are feeling pretty good about this right about now. At least the Democratic platform acknowledged the pressing danger of global warming.
You’re projecting. You know that your rationalization for voting Democratic (that it’s the way to win) lays in shattered ruin about your feet, so you’re blaming others for your party’s failure. But owning that failure is the way to succeed in the future.
2 points you might be ready to hear now:
Every major party vote in my state was meaningless, since Trump couldn’t win my state as I’ve said for months and Trump was going to win the general as I’ve said for months. I voted smart, I made the maximum possible impact available to me. Maybe, instead of talking at me, Democrats should have listened to me, eh?
This is not the time to double down on attacking people who simply weren’t frightened by the prospect of a Trump win. Democratic party rank and file need to discard the divisive strategies that made Clinton fail.
[quote=“Medievalist, post:207, topic:79529”]
This is not the time to double down on attacking people who simply weren’t frightened by the prospect of a Trump win.
[/quote]I can’t imagine this is what you mean to say.
You’re spot on. Greens and Libertarians didn’'t “steal” Democratic votes. Trump did. Just like he “stole” the entire Republican party, really; he played a rigged game better than the people who rigged it.
But Democrats are in deep denial about their party’s environmental record. I would have voted even if the Greens weren’t on the ballot, sure - I would have voted for my mother, as I often have. Bernie Sanders was the only Democrat who ever offered promise for anti-pollution voters.
Two of my coworkers voted Trump. One was a Bernie fan who couldn’t deal with Hillary’s baggage, the other is a hard core Libertarian who hates Johnson and was appalled by Weld endorsing Clinton. Neither one likes Trump, yet they voted Trump anyway. That is a Democratic Party faliure, and certainly not a GOP triumph.
So he won’t start a new Civil War, but could start a new Great Depression. He’s just another Bush Jr, just when we’ve begun to dig out from the original Bush Jr.
It’s undermining the actual people who are scared by Trump though. I’m not scared of Trump, my income will go up and I suffer little effects of the social policies as a pretty traditional household that holds more liberal views.
My personal story is I’m scared for my nanny, not because I won’t be able to afford or find other help but because she’s a family member at this point.
But frankly, I’m afraid my grandchildren will be forced to work 60 hour weeks in VR cubicles in order to be able to afford small bottles of breathable air.
People are already having to buy clean water, which is produced and distributed via processes that are heavily polluting. I drink water directly from my stream and people think I’m nuts to do so.. Time’s running out, I’m prioritizing carefully.
One of my major areas of expertise is in the oil and gas industry. They’re going to have carte blanche to be as dirty as they want (because it’s cheaper, not because they’re Bond villians). Believe me, they will jump at the chance of having even fewer government regulations cutting into their profit.
There are literally hundreds of subcontractors involved in oil & gas production for each well. Even if most of them maintain safe levels of operation, out of a sense of ethics if nothing else, there are so many points in the process where an unscrupulous company will cut corners to make more money. That’s just how it is.
That’s what you’ve voted for. That’s what you’re prioritizing: people well above your economic station in life making more money and causing irreparable harm to the environment in the process.
I wouldn’t count on it unless you’re already in the .01%. Republican presidents have prioritized tax cuts since Reagan. Each time they do, it triggers a recession and the stock market tanks.
One of the talking heads on election nights was comparing “Donald Trump” to “Andrew Jackson”. It is, perhaps an understandable cliche. But Jackson laid the groundwork for the Panic of 1837. A five year depression.
No, that’s simply not true. That’s what everyone voting for Trump voted for, and that’s what everyone who wasted their vote on the failed Clinton campaign has ended up enabling. That’s what everyone buying gas cars is voting for, with their dollars.
I am either a tiny island of sanity, or completely insane, depending on your perspective - but my party registration, my primary votes, my purchasing decisions, my vote in the general election were all optimized to do the most possible damage to dirty energy producers who are the enemies of my species. Literally nothing I could have done would have been more effective, or even equally effective. I made the best choices available… unlike Trump and Clinton voters.
Remember, Clinton won my state and Trump won the general. My vote meant nothing if cast for Trump or Clinton. Literally, no possible effect on the outcomes.
I successfully predicted what would happen and did the best I could, and attempts to blame the outcome on people like me are just scapegoating. It’s basically saying that it’s OK for the Democratic party to be wrong and do the wrong things and lose the election, but it’s not OK for me to be right and do the most optimal thing I could.
Those are all fair points. You had complained about not having many Green candidates to vote for, but I think I understand your full reasoning now. Thanks for persisting until I got it!
