Why or Why Not; Voting for Hilary Clinton


#1

Bernie Sanders needs to win both Iowa and New Hampshire if he has any hope of winning the democratic nomination for president.

Bernie may very well win the democratic nomination for president. However the problem for Bernie is once the primaries in Iowa and New Hampshire are over, many of the remaining states are more representative of the broader and more culturally diverse Democratic Party.

Many of the remaining states especially the south, are comprised of more ethnically diverse democratic voters, an area Bernie is still hoping to close significant ground on in his race against Hillary Clinton.

During the last democratic presidential debate in Charleston, South Carolina, Hillary Clinton pointed out Bernie Sanders disrespectful, unwarranted and over-the-top criticism of President Obama in 2011.

Transcript of Charleston, South Carolina democratic presidential debate.

CLINTON: '… But where we disagree is the comments that Senator Sanders has made that don’t just affect me, I can take that, but he’s criticized President Obama for taking donations from Wall Street, and President Obama has led our country out of the great recession."

"Senator Sanders called him weak, disappointing. He even, in 2011, publicly sought someone to run in a primary against President Obama…’

CLINTON: "Your profusion of comments about your feelings towards President Obama are a little strange given what you said about him in 2011.’

Bernie has been no advocate for the accomplishments of democrats or President Obama–a few comments here and there, but nothing that would be expected or becoming of a candidate seeking the democratic presidential nomination.

Bernie has been mostly doom and gloom regarding the economy and he needs to explain his comments about President Obama in 2011.

This interview in 2011 reveals the expressed words of Bernie Sanders who is running for the 2016 Democratic Party nomination for president. Print media article of Bernie Sanders criticizing President Obama.

Sanders’s response: Video of Bernie Sanders in 2011 criticizing President Obama and talking about a primary challenger against him in 2012

“Ryan, believe me, I wish I had the answer to your question. Let me just suggest this. I think that there are millions of Americans who are deeply disappointed in the president, who believe that with regard to Social Security and a number of other issues, he has said one thing as a candidate and is doing something very much else, who cannot believe how weak he has been — for whatever reason — in negotiating with Republicans, and there’s deep disappointment.”

"So my suggestion is, I think, you know one of the reasons the president has been able to move so far to the right is that there is no primary opposition to him. And I think it would do this country a good deal of service if people started thinking about candidates out there to begin contrasting what is a progressive agenda as opposed to what Obama is doing.”

“At this point, I have not, but I am now giving thought to doing it. You know the names out there as well as I do. And I think the American people have got to be engaged, it’s not just me or anybody else here in Washington."

"There are a lot of smart, honest progressives who I think can be good presidents. One of the reasons President Obama has moved as far to the right as he has, is he thinks he can go all the way and no one will stand up to him. So, Tim, I don’t want to tell you more than that, but this is an issue we are beginning to talk about a little bit.”

According to Nate Silver and others at the weighted polling aggregate website FiveThirtyEight.com–Hillary Clinton as of January 21, 2016 has a 79% chance of winning the Iowa caucuses, while Bernie Sanders has a 59% chance of winning the New Hampshire primary.

FiveThirtyEight (538) is a polling aggregation website that uses extensive in-state polling to make its predictions; and successfully predicted the outcome in all fifty states in the 2012 presidential election. [FiveThirtyEight.com Iowa and New Hampshire election predictions.] (http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/primary-forecast/iowa-democratic/)

Hillary Clinton, her campaign staff and her loyal supporters are taking nothing for granted, including Bernie Sanders. The Clinton campaign is approaching the pending democratic primaries like they are behind in the national polls instead of ahead. Every vote counts, needs to be asked for, competed for–and will not be assumed or taken for granted as secured.

President Obama is still well liked and admired by many in the Democratic Party. Hillary Clinton has been a outspoken advocate for the Democratic Party and its candidates up and down the ticket.

Hillary Clinton has been a champion of President Obama and the social and economic accomplishments of democrats under the leadership of President Obama, accomplishments like:

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, which has provided health care to millions of previously uninsured Americans.

Dramatic reduction in the U-3 and U-6 unemployment rates since October of 2009 until January of 2016–U-3 10.0 to 5.0 and U-6 17.1 to 9.9 respectively. Note this is with “one full year” still remaining in President Obama’s presidency–the rates will be even lower by the time President Obama leaves office. U-3 unemployment rate since 2005U-6 unemployment rate since 2000.

63 record breaking months of consecutive job creation. 63 consecutive months of job creation.Bureau of Labor Statistics job creation per month.

Ridiculously low and sustained gas prices–coupled with improvements in fuel efficiency; leading to more miles being driven per gallon.

Dramatic drops in the unemployment rates achieved under President Obama. White, African-American and Asian unemployment ratesHispanic/Latino unemployment rates.

African-American, Hispanic/Latino, Asian and White unemployment rates in 2009.

“The black community has suffered the hardest during the economic downturn, with an unemployment rate that currently stands at 15.6%. That’s a much higher rate than for all of the other races that the Labor Department tracks, including Hispanics (12.7%), whites (9.3%) and Asians (7.3%).”

In January of 2016 the overall unemployment rate for African-Americans, Hispanic/Latino, Whites and Asians stands at 8.3, 6.3, 4.5 and 4.0 respectively .

In January of 2016 the unemployment rates for African-Americans male and female stands at: 8.7 and 6.9. For Hispanic/Latino male and female: 5.5 and 6.3. For Whites male and female: 4.2 and 3.9 and for Asians overall: 4.0

Republicans like to cite and talk about how many more people have been plunged into poverty since President Obama has been in office.

Republicans should know, because it was republican economic policies initiated under George W. Bush, that caused massive job loses in the first ten months of President Obama’s 1st term as president. Job loses that were responsible for millions of American’s going into poverty–January of 2009 to October of 2009 job loses: 796,000, 703,000, 824,000, 684,000, 355,000, 467,000, 325,000, 217,000, 227,000, 201,000. Job loses and created since 2008BLS jobs created and lost since 2005.

Despite total Republican Party obstruction and opposition the economy has improved. Republicans have no answer for the marked improvement in the economy under democrats and the leadership of President Obama.

There is still more work to be done on the economy by the next president; raising wages, income equality etc. That president needs to be a president from the Democratic Party.

Bernie Sanders needs to explain his 2011 comments about President Obama, especially his right wing comment about President Obama moving all the way to the right, like Rush Limbaugh, Bernie?

“There are a lot of smart, honest progressive people who I think can be good presidents. I think one of the reasons that President Obama has moved as far to the right as he has, is he thinks he can go all the way; and no one will stand up to him"


Obama reacts to Trump's "radical islam" terminology gripe
Ted Cruz jokes about killing Donald Trump
Let me be clear
#2

Bernie has been no advocate for the accomplishments of democrats or President Obama–a few comments here and there, but nothing that would be expected or becoming of a candidate seeking the democratic presidential nomination.

I vote for who I think is the best choice for any office, whatever their party might be. So in this instance I would vote for Bernie whether he was running as a democrat or not.

As for Obama - I voted for Obama. I think it isn’t disrespectful to say that his terms have not lived up to the strong convictions he campaigned with. Obama, and other democrats, need to disentangle themselves and the rest of US politics from the interests of corporatists. Otherwise they are unable to guarantee the social progress their party has been known for.


#3

Campaign season is essentially the world’s most agonizing public job interview, and before I give Bernie my thumbs-up, I’d like to hear him justify his claims that Obama had gone ‘right wing’ by 2011, given the items on his agenda that year (healthcare reform, a budget increase for green energy, high-speed rail, college affordability, job stimulus, Wall Street regulation).


#4

Sanders isn’t and hasn’t been a democrat, even though he’s running as a democratic candidate. What precisely does he owe Obama or any of the democratic party? Many of us on the left DO find Obama disappointing as president. I’m not sure how being critical of the president is “over the top”… Especially considering the actual over the top comments the hard right has made about him (which are of course thinly veiled racism).

How ISN’T Obama a center-right candidate? The same can be asked of both Clintons, too. The democrats have left behind many of their constituencies. The mainstream democractic party, despite being better than the republicans at this point, have done little to warrant our support. They are just as responsible for the corporate selling out of this country as the GOP. Some of us are a little sick and tired of voting for the lesser of two evils that are only marching us down the spiral. While the polices that Obama pursued when he came into office to turn around the recession helped, it also just more fully entrenched the corporations that caused it in the first place. He did nothing to address the underlying problems (not that the GOP would have helped, of course, but he didn’t even make the attempt WHEN HE HAD BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS!!!).

As for his comments - at no point does he saying anything disrepsectful to Obama as a person. He goes after Obama’s policies, for sure, but how exactly is that out of line? What precisely does Sanders (or any of this, for that matter) owe the democratic party at this point? It’s not the party of Carter any longer, it’s the less nasty party of oligarchs, who are just more willing to throw us slightly better bones with some meat on them.


#5

Well, he is running for their nomination right now.

(although I agree with you).

I found this grimly amusing today.


#6

Sanders doesn’t need to explain anything. Obama does, and Clinton does for supporting the insurance companies over the people.

The removal of the public option from consideration was HORRIBLE. We’d have been better off with no ACA and ONLY the public option.

I was working for DHS in Madison (Medicaid and all of our social support programs) and the people who I respected who understand how the system works (Jim Jones, Curtis Cunningham, etc.) were absolutely furious when that happens.

There’s a huge difference between ‘here’s a million dollars, spend it all to help people’ and ‘here’s a million dollars, you can keep what you don’t spend’. Obama chose to give all the power to the latter and that was a travesty.


#7

If Bernie wins the nomination I will vote for him–he is better than any republican running for president.

I don’t think you are being fair about the positive accomplishments during President Obama’s tenure as president—which has been accomplished with the support of democrats under the leadership of President Obama. The significant and in some cases record breaking improvements in the economy is but one of them.

Bernie is not the quintessential liberal and progressive he claims to be., Bernie has made mistakes and had to evolve on social issues like many other democrats i.e. Hillary Clinton and President Obama.

Bernie was once in favor of allowing states to make the decision to allow same-sex marriage, in 2006.

Excerpt by Bernie Sanders from the October 27, 2006 Vermont Senate debate between Independent and Incumbent Bernie Sanders, then a member of the U.S House of Representatives and his challenger for the Vermont Senate seat, republican Richard Tarrant.

“I believe that the Federal Government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other state, because I think Stuart, the whole issue of marriage is a state issue, that’s what it is, so that is my view on that”

Bernie voted five times against the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (The Brady Bill). Bernie voted against gun control bill 5 times.

As well, Bernie voted to deregulate Wall Street in 2000.He voted for “The Commodity Futures Modernization Act in 2000”–a bill signed into law by President Bill Clinton.

Former president Bill Clinton has admitted he made a mistake in signing the bill into law–Bernie will not even admit he made a big mistake…

Hillary or Bernie in 2016!:scream:


#8

then-Congressman Sanders voted for the CFMA, not because he wanted to, but because he had to.

The CFMA had been shoved into an omnibus spending bill at the last minute as part of a deal between Republicans and President Bill Clinton, and because this was a time when, you know, Congress actually did its job, Sanders bit the bullet and voted for the whole package - CFMA included - to keep the government open.

Only four members of Congress ended up opposing the final spending bill that included the CFMA, and one of them was Ron Paul, who opposed pretty much every spending bill. But that’s just of the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how dishonest Clinton was being when she called Bernie out for voting for the CFMA.

Even if Bernie had a good reason to vote for that omnibus spending bill - like preventing a government shutdown - Sanders was angry that he been forced into deregulating Wall Street.

And so he struck back hard in 2008, when President-elect Obama picked former Treasury official and Goldmans Sachs bankster Gary Gensler to head up the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, or CFTC.

During his time at the Treasury, Gensler had pushed hard for Wall Street deregulation and even helped write the CFMA, something now-Senator Bernie Sanders found unacceptable. And so Bernie moved to block Gensler’s nomination. Sanders explained his actions during an appearance on Democracy Now.

Although Sanders did succeed in blocking Gensler’s nomination, the victory was short-lived: The hold was only temporary, and the Senate ended up approving Gensler as head of the CFTC on March 16, 2009. He held that post until 2014, when he was succeeded by Timothy Massad.

So what’s Gary Gensler - the guy who promoted the CFMA - up to today? Oh, you know, nothing big. He’s just the chief financial officer of the Hillary Clinton campaign.


#9

Bernie Sanders may as well be a democrat, he votes 95% of the time with democrats, he caucuses with the Democratic Party-- and he has chosen and been allowed (rules suspended) to run for the 2016 democratic presidential nomination.

When Bernie Sanders ran for the U.S. Senate in 2006 the Democratic Party threw all its weight behind Bernie in order to get him elected.

Chuck Schumer, then Chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, endorsed Sanders, which restricted any potential democrat running against Sanders from receiving financial help from the Democratic Party.

Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid endorsed Bernie.

Howard Dean former Vermont Governor and then Chairman of the Democratic National Committee also endorsed Bernie.

As Bernie mentioned in the recent Charleston, South Carolina democratic presidential debate, then Senator Barack Obama campaigned in Vermont for Bernie Sanders helping to get him elected to the U.S Senate.

If Bernie wins the democratic nomination for president, I will vote for him. However Bernie is no more of a liberal and progressive than Hillary, President Obama or most democrats.

Bernie is not the pure and essential essence of liberalism and progressive ethics he claims to be. Bernie is running for the democratic nomination for president and he must attempt to contrast himself to Hillary in order to stand out to potential voters–that’s good politics on Bernie’s part.

However many democrats know and like Bernie–Bernie has evolved on social and cultural issues like many democrats i.e. Hillary Clinton and President Obama…

Note: I posted the links (above) to the next three examples (below) in a previous comment/reply post.

Bernie in 2006 supported “state rights” for same-sex marriage…

Bernie voted five times against the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (The Brady Bill).

Bernie is the only candidate running for the democratic presidential nomination who has voted to deregulate Wall Street. He voted for “The Commodity Futures Modernization Act in 2000”–a bill signed into law by President Bill Clinton.

Former president Bill Clinton has admitted he made a mistake in signing the bill into law–Bernie will not even admit he made a big mistake…

Bernie attacks Hillary for receiving money from Wall Street–maybe Wall Street gives money to Hillary not because they expect she will give them favors or she is corruptible. Maybe they give her money because they know (like her husband former president Bill Clinton), that her economic policies and agenda will be good for America and good for Wall Street.

The economy and Wall Street did well under former president Bill Clinton, the economy and Wall Street have done well under President Obama–and they will do well under Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders.

The economy almost always does better under a democratic president than a republican president.

If the American economy does well Wall Street will do well.

Bernie :boy: or Hillary :girl: in 2016!


#10

“go all the way” is a reference to the then-upcoming election, not to how far to the right Sanders thinks Obama would/could/wants/whatever to go.

Obama the President stands to the Right of Obama the Candidate, and a great many people wish he would not. Sander’s criticism of the President is valid.

It also explains itself. If you needed a bit of help with regard to that last quote you offered up, that’s on you.

As for criticism in respect to elections, primaries, parties and all related aspects… anyone who won’t speak truth to power shouldn’t be allowed power themselves, so as far as I’m concerned Clinton is the one with explaining to do. I voted for Obama, so what? He’s been “okay” which is “okay”. “Okay” is not what I was promised, and he can and should be criticized on policy and principles by anyone seeking nomination to be elected to that office, then even more by anyone seeking to be elected to that office.

Clinton toeing the line, and criticizing others for not doing so, is just another illustration of her position as the Status Quo candidate, the plaything of Wall Street.


#11

This is an excerpt from part of the article you cited and linked

“Only four members of Congress ended up opposing the final spending bill that included the CFMA,”

That means that Bernie did not have to vote for the bill–as it had the votes needed to pass. It is called counting the votes. Bernie could have been the last or one of the last members of Congress to vote. He could have voted “no”, like the other four members of Congress.

He could have waited until the votes needed were secured, counted and recorded. He could have stood up before hand (during floor debate) and given the reason for his opposition to the bill for the congressional record. His vote would not have mattered as the votes needed to pass the bill were secured, counted and recorded.

That is what you do if you are the consummate model of liberal and progressive values you claim to be–Bernie did not have to vote for the bill.

I like Bernie Sanders and I will vote for him if he wins the democratic nomination for president–but Hillary is right and the article you cited does not take into account, there was no need for his “yes” vote.

Hillary and Bernie are competing for the democratic nomination which either one has a equal chance of winning in my opinion–despite what the polls say.

Bernie has insulted the integrity of Hillary Clinton, by claiming she is controlled and corrupted by Wall Street because she has received campaign contributions and donations or received speaking fees from Wall Street.

As Hillary has pointed out numerous times, her Wall Street reform plan is more comprehensive and punitive than Bernie’s.

The economy and Wall Street did well under Bill Clinton, the economy and Wall Street are doing well under President Obama. The economy and Wall Street does well almost always under democratic leadership and when a democrat is in the White House.

Maybe that is why they contribute to Hillary-they know her economic philosophy is very similar to the economic track record of her husband, former president Bill Clinton and President Obama.


#12

The list of legislative and executive action accomplishments achieved by democrats under the leadership of President Obama is exhaustive-and there is still almost 12 full months to go in his presidency

President Obama considering the economy he inherited from George W. Bush and the total obstruction and opposition he has faced from republicans–is one of the, if not the greatest president we have had since FDR…


#13

You can drop names–but name one Wall Street deregulation plan that Hillary has proposed in her economic plan.

You can’t ignore the fact that the economy did well under former president Bill Clinton and the economy is doing well under President Obama.

If Hillary Clinton wins the democratic nomination for president and she goes on to become the 45th President of the United States, the economy will continue to improve and do well under her leadership.


#14

I don’t think anyone denies that. Wall Street contributes to her because she’s friendly to Wall Street.

Realpolitik exists for all politicians. Yes, Sanders has voted for bills and taken positions that we may not like. See the recent comments about reparation, the issues with BLM early in his campaign. Politician’s positions evolve over time, and they have to win elections - Sanders has been less pro gun control because he wouldn’t win election in Vermont otherwise.

It’s always disappointing, but it’s life. Of the candidates on the table, he’s offering more that I like than anyone else. Like most Sanders supporters here, I’d have preferred Warren.

Clinton will be less of a reformer than Obama, and he’s been disappointing too (although no denying he’s a million times better than McCain or Romney would have been).

Any Democrat is better than any Republican, so if Clinton wins the primary I’ll want her to be President, but I think Sanders offers more chance of movement in the right direction. I don’t like the Clinton/Blair ‘Third Way’ stuff much.


#15

How can you believe that paid piper? It’s baloney.

Folks can try to pick holes in Bernie all they like, but meh to quibbles over details when the likes of Robert Reich will be formulating his ultimate policy details down the track. I’ll trust a guy who refuses to have a SuperPAC and gives big money the finger to the end of the earth - all those other jive turkeys can go piss up a rope. They’re a different fucking species.

Bernie’s an actual human, with fair dinkum principles - how are you missing that? There’s finally someone to vote for, rather than against.


#16

Do you expect Sanders to vote with the GOP? In theory (and historically) the democrats are more in line with Sander’s views. Not surprising that he’d vote with them often.

No one said that, least of all me. However, he is to the left of Clinton.

Explain the very right-centrist voting record of both, then.

At a time when there were attempts to end marriage rights where it had already been passed by conservatives in the congress (ie when they were trying to get a constitutional amendment to end marriage equality WHERE IT ALREADY EXISTED AT THE TIME, DESPITE LOCAL SUPPORT FOR MARRIAGE EQUALITY).

No. I strongly disagree. Wall Street thrived in the wake of the end of the Cold War, and after a brief spike in ordinary fortunes, the gap between those who live off capital investments and the rest of us has grown by a huge margin. Wall Street pretty much . The only reason wall street and main street rise and fall together is that they are now linked together via large scale corporatist banks that need to be broken up.

Do you know how corporate money in the American system actually works? Because it’s not in the favor of those of us without a fortune.

I’m not arguing that Sanders is some perfect socialist who can’t be criticized… I’m arguing that he’s to the left of Clinton.


#17

Bah, you can go a lot fucking further than that… I say Bernie is a whole different breed of politician from the average fare; so much so that to call him a politician seems like an insult - he’s plainly an exemplary public servant.

I’m flabbergasted there are people who are ostensibly paying attention who can’t see that he stands out from the crowd like twenty metres of neon. He rejects an entire class of ‘pragmatic’ considerations which are in fact the most banal form of corruption (that we’re generally resigned to suffering), instead relying on his ability to promote the role of decency and intellectual rigor in collective decision-making, which thankfully allows a lot more common ground than the fear-driven partisan wedging everybody’s so goddamn sick of.

He is plainly a political outsider, which is a damn fine thing when all the insiders are bent on rape and plunder. None of us have seen such a maverick rise so high for nigh on forty years.

#carpe fucking diem.


#18

Bernie Sanders is lucky to have you as a supporter.

I just feel that either Bernie or Hillary (who I support) would make a great president.


#19

I agree with you about Bernie being to the left of Hillary–but then Bernie is literally like a liberal and progressive on steroids, he is to the left of practically every other democrat today.

Bernie is reminiscent of the iconic white liberals and progressives who formed the NAACP in 1909 and 1910. They were also like liberals and progressives on steroids and a few of them were iconic Jewish-American leaders, while many of them were iconic liberal and progressive women. Without them there would have been no NAACP, no Brown vs Board of Education and no President Obama etc etc…

The good thing about Bernie’s real and serious challenge to Hillary, is that the two candidates are creating discussion and engagement–which are keys for voter enthusiasm and more importantly, voters getting out and voting!

Both Bernie and Hillary have talked about the importance of having a massive voter turnout not only in the democratic primaries but in the general election, no matter who the democratic nominee is.

Voter turnout is the key for the Democratic Party to win in 2016 up and down the ticket in all 50 states–and the main reason why republicans all across America are engaging in voter suppression and repression. Republicans know they cannot win if there is a massive voter turnout.

I am a Hillary supporter–but there is no doubt that the race is tightening and Bernie is trending.

I love history and history making moments, it is very satisfying that both Hillary and Bernie are without question the two most qualified, competent, inclusive and experienced candidates running for president in 2016.

I truly believe that America will make history for the second time when the most powerful country in the world elects either the 1st woman president, or the 1st president of Jewish ancestry–that will be great for the social and cultural evolution of America and the world.


#20

I guess I’m unsure then why you created this topic, since you seemed focus on bringing a criticism of Sanders in favor of Clinton?