This is absolutely delightful.
And the Democratic Party hasn’t also become an absolute wreck?
Come on, man!
Biden and the Democrats have done very little for labor. Democrats have controlled the House, Senate, and White House for almost two years. They’ve refused to push through the PRO Act. They’ve refused to pass major legislation against union busting, which union activists at Starbucks and Amazon are fighting every day and which helped lead to the defeat of an Amazon union in Bessemer. They refused to enshrine abortion rights — a key working class right — into law over a 50 year period. And on and on and on. Regardless of the intentions of a Democrat here or there, the Democratic Party is a sophisticated bureaucratic machine designed to get union votes while keeping labor weak for the sake of the ruling rich.
As for HRC herself, yes Republicans are worse in most ways, but I’m not willing to blind myself to what a warmongering servant of the US empire she would’ve been as preznit. Her heinous laughter over the death in the streets of Gaddafi, and complete lack of remorse over what a murderous hellhole western powers have since made of that country, was enough to convince me of that.
I have tried to remain friendly with the few Trumpers I know (I’m not sure we’re “friends” per se, but we’re friendly), because I like to see if there’s a way to get through to them about issues, and if you become hated enemies any conversation is already poisoned before it even begins.
There is still a subtle disgust and dismissal apparent on both sides whenever I speak with them, so it’s probably moot, but at the same time I get good updates on the bad-faith arguments they make and twisted thought processes they rely on.
Been reading his own press releases have you?
That’s really neither here nor there anyway. A Nazi who can shred like Jimi Hendrix is still a fucking Nazi.
Tom can certainly like and be friends with whoever he wants, but I don’t have to like it or understand it.
Personally, if someone was trying to be friends with me, and I learned that they’d prefer and actively work to make my other friends dead, I’d probably not want to hang out with them much, because then I’m putting the value of one bigot over the value of multiple non-bigots.
And no bigot deserves that level of attention, especially one who hasn’t been relevant in 40 years, other than to constantly remind us that he’s… (checks notes)… a bigot.
I have a low-political-engagement friend who voted for 45 in 2016 but I was able to convince him to not vote for 45 in 2020. He still voted for a bunch of Repubs down-ticket, but I’ll take it.
That said, my friend is generally a good guy, he just has an aliegence to the GOP much like he does for the Minnesota Vikings. It has nothing to do with policy or really information at all.
In contrast, there’s no way I could remain friends with an actively toxic asshole like Nugent. He constantly spews violent rhetoric and helps to fund domestic terrorism. He has blood on his hands. He has culpability in nurturing the kinds of groups that plotted and started to implement the attempted Whitmer kidnapping.
Tolerating fascists’ and Nazis’ speech allows them to spread their poison and assists them in furthering their goals-- the violent destruction of anyone they believe to be the enemy.
I cannot comprehend how “free speech for fascists” is ever a good idea.
I’m gonna go ahead and just repost:
My Gram always said that if you hang around garbage you’ll start to smell like it.
If any of your ‘friends’ are bigoted, misogynistic assholes who actively perpetuate hate, then maybe you’re not actually as decent of a human being as you like to think you are.
Hmm, the guy who thinks debating Nazis is a good idea got his post deleted…such a gosh darned shame…
I was just going to say, that if you’re in a position to, and have the ability to completely demolish a fascist in debate - to make him look stupid, laughable and pathetic to the audience watching- then go ahead. But that has to be your goal from the start, and it seems to me that most lefty people don’t have the inclination or frankly the ability to be bloody-minded enough for the task. The (usually implicit) ideal of liberal consensus through debate just doesn’t apply in this case. There is no consensus possible with a fascist.
There’s no point in debating a fascist. To even do so implies that his ideas are worth consideration.
See the Bertrand Russell comment upthread…
I mean, whatever, he’s fine as a guitar player but I don’t know that he’d merit even a top 50 placement in any sort of “best guitarists” list.
I think that theory needs the same response that the CEO of Coke gave when he was asked if “New Coke” was deliberately introduced to get people to to demand more of the old product.
“We’re not that smart, and we’re not that dumb.”
Not if you treat him as a subject of ridicule, i.e. if no patina of legitimacy is granted or conceded. I am not speaking of debate in the mainstream media sense. I agree that there’s no point to that.
Unfortunately, such bigoted assholes are granted the appearance of legitimacy by even engaging them in the first place.
Again, B. Russell had it right:
*, deny fascists a platform all together.
Cut the Cancer out immediately; don’t give it even half a chance to spread.
*Edited for clarification to avoid any miscommunication, be it intentional or otherwise.
Sigh…as if I had the power to deny Fascists a platform…there are places where that’s impossible to do. If you never go to such places, more power to you, I guess. But if you’re on Youtube, for instance, they are there. Make fun of them if you have the ability. (Hbomberguy’s videos are a good example).
Of course, if you can deny them the platform, that’s the better course of action. But do you really think that just dogmatically asserting that Fascists Shall Never Be Debated is always the smart move? Ridicule isn’t really debate, is it?
Woah there, playa; I never said or even implied that YOU personally have the power to do anything.
I’m stating that trying to “debate” fascists in good faith is a complete waste of one’s time and energy: they cannot be converted or redeemed, and even engaging in the exchange inadvertently amplifies their poisonous ideology.
Also that capital F on fascists; it’s doing a lot of work in your comment… they’re not a protected class, yo.
I mean, the evidence in many places is that they basically are, just not in the way you mean.
That just makes it more important to push back where it’s possible to do so, in whatever ways we have available.