Public rejection of something is not antagonism toward something, despite what the persecution complex of Christianity would like to believe, publicly declaring to worship something they consider evil, whether Satan or anything else, is not an infringement upon or attack of their beliefs. Demonstrating freedom from their religion is not antagonism. That kind of submissive bullshit victim blaming of people exercising their freedom of and from religion is tantamount to saying followers of the established prevailing religion, Christianity in the US, should have the power to dictate the religious or anti-religious expression of others even when the Constitution explicitly forbids them that power over others, because by victim blaming those who exercise it as trollies, you’re implying the people policing that expression are in the right.
I’m not a Satanist or believer in any religion, but I adamantly believe everyone should have the right to publicly express a symbol that contradicts the beliefs of another religion, in this case one responsible for thousands of years of atrocities, irrespective of whether their motives are actual belief in one of the Abrahamic religions’ various fallen angels or merely publicly exercise that freedom to display said symbol. And because I believe that I won’t dismiss the people exercising that right or the actual persecution of them for doing it.
You say driving trollies, but driving trollies is an action done insincerely. Satanists are sincerely exercising their freedom of religion, specifically their freedom not to be Christian. A right that goes unexercised is a right that’s lost, and that freedom is something dominionists and their fundie fellow travelers would jump at a chance to take away. Religious freedom isn’t some game for the lulz, the stakes are our very lives.
Satanists are absolutely within their right to do so, but it’s still “driving trollies” in the same sense as Pastafarianism is driving trollies. They don’t actually believe in the deity their religion is ostensibly dedicated to, they just like getting people’s goats. If their only purpose was “exercising their freedom not to be Christian” then they wouldn’t need a church at all.
This is quite simply factually incorrect. Plenty of religions have rules about clothing that have nothing to do with whether or not the individual appears in public. Not that’s it’s relevant to the discussion at hand, but religious ignorance that could be used against the followers of said religions shouldn’t go uncorrected.
Thank you for patiently correcting the bad legal takes others are using to apologize for the airline’s illegal and unethical behavior.
It doesn’t of course. If any other passengers or crew would disrupt the safe operation of the flight because of the religious expression of said passenger, then they are the ones who endanger the flight and should be removed, not the person expressing their religious freedom. Textbook victim blaming.
No, it isn’t. And calling it driving trollies is dismissive.
A, you don’t know that. B, their motives for practicing their religion are completely absolutely 100% irrelevant to the judgement of those who persecute them for exercising that right. Period.
I didn’t say it was their purpose. That’s what you choose to impute to my statement. I was careful to very specifically say “Satanists are sincerely exercising their freedom of religion, specifically their freedom not to be Christian.” It’s a statement about the sincerity of their actions, not the sincerity of their motives. Because their motives are irrelevant.
Honestly, what bothers me the most is that we still have to rely on arguing for inclusive behavior based on the law instead of what is just the right thing to do…
You insist they’re nothing more than trolls. Is it safe to assume you don’t think the Abrahamic religions are trolls? If so, what is your criteria for deciding which religions aren’t trolls?
Just to be clear, I’m asking this because I know you’re someone who supports equal rights, and I want to understand why you seem to have two classes of religion since that seems like an unexamined bias.
They’re not “just” trolls. They’re waging important fights for civil rights and personal freedoms.
The thing that makes them different from Abrahamic religions is that as far as I’ve been able to tell most Satanists don’t actually believe in Satan. But hey, always happy to learn something new if I’m mistaken on that front.
From what I know of Satanists, that’s an oversimplification, but I certainly can’t speak for them. That said, if they say they believe something, then they deserve to be believed just as much as anyone else claiming to believe or disbelieve something. Their sincerity should not be doubted based on which belief system they choose.
And for any who don’t believe in the physical reality of Satan, that doesn’t mean they don’t believe in the reality of the symbol as a rejection of the Abrahamic religions. And rejecting something isn’t driving trollies. If I wear a shirt saying I believe in science with a picture of the round Earth, I’m not driving trollies Flat Earthers, I’m expressing dissent with their expressed beliefs. Dissent is no more driving trollies that us disagreeing with each other is driving trollies each other. And saying Satanists are trollies isn’t just a misuse of a term, it’s misuse of a loaded derogatory term.
It seems odd to doubt the sincerity of entire religions and I suggest that that doubt derives from a misunderstanding or at least assumptions about them that doesn’t correctly reflect their beliefs.
Sure, but I’m not sure I see a material difference between that and someone who believes in the symbolic power of the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a rejection of young-Earth creationism.
Let me put it this way: do we grant Christians and Satanists more rights or respect than Pastafarians, or do we accept all three even though we know some of their actions are basically a means of protesting the things they don’t like about the others?
I think people are saying that Satanists are not just protesting, but there are other things afoot there, while Pastafarians were from the start a joke (much like Church of the Subgenius).
That’s fair. I still think lot of what the Satanists do is purely about trolling the Christians though (which is a big part of what makes them so fun).
On further thought, anticipating a likely valid counterargument, that it’s not driving trollies because I believe in a round Earth, even if it was a picture of Prachett’s Discworld, it still wouldn’t be driving trollies despite the fact that I don’t believe in the Great A’Tuin. Because I sincerely believe in the point being expressed, and am not doing it to be antagonistic just because the chosen symbol of my disbelief is merely a symbol. So while I doubt all Satanists are mere rejectionists of the Abrahamic religions - and in fact have a detailed religious philosophy of their own - even if they were, it wouldn’t make them trollies.
If you mean should we, then no, obviously. Though if you mean do we as a culture, as a matter reality then yes, we often do even though we shouldn’t and it’s technically often illegal. Because the rule of law rarely fully prevails.
Yes, but I still don’t see protesting as driving trollies. I think most people understand those to be two different things.
BTW, I appreciate that while this can be a tense topic, we’re still able to have a constructive conversation over the points of our disagreement.
Okay, but I’m gonna assume that many Satanists don’t necessarily fell like all their doing is trolling… as @GulliverFoyle noted, protesting is likely more accurate. And there is much to protest there from mainstream white Christian America.
