Robbie Graham may be sharing more of Chris Carter’s visit with Mack in an upcoming book called Silver Screen Saucers (due in September). I’m aware that Graham reached out to Carter and to the experiencer to see if their story can be told; I’ll see if Graham can stop by here and say more. So much more could be said, if permissions have been secured.
Mack only wrote 2 books on the subject by the way - his second (and by far superior) book was Passport to the Cosmos. “It is a better book than Abduction,” Mack wrote (in a letter to a friend), “but aroused less interest. After all, a Harvard professor can only make news making a fool of himself once.”
The alien “abductions” always occur while the person in bed and the person generally maintains they “couldn’t move.” How is it that a Harvard professor doesn’t come up with “lucid dreaming” and “sleep paralysis” as the explanation?
No experience with abductions, but I worked with a therapist who did past life regression hypnosis. I never did it with her, but watched her do it with my stepson, who was about 14 at the time. Mostly it was harmless - he “remembered” that he was a knight or some shit - but it is just scary how much we want to believe this stuff and how easy it is to get someone to buy into it.
He surely did, and he felt it was not a sufficient explanation. Even though the experiences do not “always occur while the person is in bed”, he did not discount that the consciousness of the experiencer may be a factor. Both Mack and a skeptic, Chris French, found in their separate research that experiencers have two characteristics related to altered states that are higher than average. Mack reported, “experiencers show moderate dissociative capacities (lower than pathological norms) and high absorption.” But Mack did not believe that meant that what people experienced was fantasy, and he wrote at length why he believed that.
I haven’t read Dr. Mack’s books so I can’t really comment regarding the particular abduction cases he analysed, but I know Dr. Mack was extremely serious about his research and I’m convinced he has considered the “sleep paralysis” hypothesis.
From memory I know of many cases that a “lucid dream” can’t explain : classic cases like Travis Walton or Betty and Barney Hill, any case with corroborative witnesses, any case with radiation burns, with scoop marks, cases with foreign implants, and many other features…
I’m familiar with one amazing case that Dr. Mack did investigate though : the Ariel school case in 1994, from Ruwa, Zimbabwe - (http://www.arielphenomenon.com/ or check on youtube/google). Personally, I’m not inclined to believe that these children were lying back then, and maintained their story for 20+ years…!
There aren’t any cases like that. If there were, you’d actually have evidence.
I don’t want to comment on the reliability of the evidence, and I don’t want to defend any of these cases, because 1) I haven’t looked at enough of the details to make a solid argument either way, and 2) we’re off of the original topic -
But I do want to just leave the door open and say: yeah, there are cases like that out there, where the conventional explanations are not 100% statisfactory and usually fail to fully address the circumstances, or testimony, or physical traces found, and usually resolve to discredit the abductee or investigator to actually work.
For your personnal info I’ll just point out a single case of a foreign implant - there are others - http://www.extraordinarybeliefs.com/news/patient-seventeen (warning : it’s graphic because surgery, the main documentary ain’t free, you’ll have to Google further to get more info)
I wish more people and scientists would look into theses cases, but there really is no incentive to do so, not even personnal curiosity because you’ll never get a hard conclusion out of this research…
Fortunately, we don’t have to accuse the Ariel kids of blatant lies. We have concrete case history of such mass delusion and false memory in children through the Satanic Ritual Abuse cases in the 1980s. ‘Vividly remembered’ demons, sacrifices and underground tunnels were all recollected, though actually turned out to be non-existent.
That not a single adult in this small rural school who was on duty witnessed anything is pretty telling in itself.
The Betty and Barney Hill case has no corroborating evidence whatsoever other than their story, which incidentally, set the path to using ‘alien greys’ as the default alien-type (prior historic reports ranged from lizards to tentacles; post-Hill they’re all ‘greys’). This was very likely influenced by an episode of ‘The Outer Limits’ which was broadcast two weeks prior and featured an alien suspiciously similar to the Hill’s.
Foreign implants? I’m afraid there’s never been a single confirmed case.
Just had a quick goog for Patient Seventeen (Patient 17 seems to be a different film). It seems too new for anyone to have written any reviews yet, but in its presentation as a feature film, I’d take my salt shaker with if you’re gonna watch it.
Oh dear, in the trailer he mentions the surgeon talking about scalar wave transmissions.
That sews it up.
Which often happens in life. We often “don’t understand” or “don’t know” what the situation is. But that doesn’t mean we jump to the least likely explanation, for which there is also no evidence.
That’s where “I want to believe” fits in. If you actively seek the paranormal explanation then that’s where your research will lead you.
Sure. That’s why I’m reluctant to jump on the “lucid dream” explanation, when in some cases, it doesn’t fit the the circumstances, or testimony, or physical traces found.
In some of these stories there are two main hypothesis: 1) an unlikely but ordinary hypothesis, that doesn’t necessarily fit the data and often discredits the first hand witness, but is supported by a voice of authority; or 2) an unlikely but phenomenal hypothesis, that is supported by the first hand testimony, and might have some corroboration or physical traces.
I am unwilling to close off one of these hypothesis because of my personal disbelief - that’s all. I don’t think it’s ludicrous of me to be open minded, and I won’t preach for an hypothesis over another. But I will underline that some of these cases are unresolved, and that indeed, “we don’t know”. I hope I don’t sound like a mental case to you.
That’s where the “discredit the abductee or investigator to actually work” comes in.
To me the mass delusion hypothesis is as extraordinary as the alien visitation hypothesis, and presents no evidence to support it.
We don’t know.
But man, I gotta tell you, those children give me pause.
I agree. But I’m open-minded either way, and willing to research.
Actually we do know, as we have mountains of case evidence that support it. See my comment above.
Fine, let’s have a look at the features of the Satanic Ritual cases:
- reports of physical and sexual abuse (none for Ariel)
- occult or Satanic rituals (extraordinary/phenomenal/paranormal event was reported - yes)
- coerced disclosures by using lengthy interviews that rewarded discussions of abuse and punished denials (not for Ariel)
- testimony that resulted from such methods was often contradictory and vague (some common features are clear in Ariel case: small beings, big eyes, metallic flying vehicle)
- The patients’ lack of memories (no loss of memory AFAIK)
- array of vague symptoms that were ultimately common, non-specific and subjective (not for Ariel: all a precise single event, with relatively clear features)
- adults who claim to remember abuse during childhood, that may have been forgotten and recovered during therapy (no therapy was used in Ariel case)
- In cases involving satanic abuse, the satanic allegations by younger children were influenced by adults (not systematically or voluntarily in Ariel case (on some instances some commenters have accused the interviewers of asking allegedly leading questions))
- The patients’ allegations change and creatively find “solutions” to objections (not for Ariel)
- pressuring young children to provide testimony and refusing to accept denials while offering inducements that encouraged false disclosures (not for Ariel)
- changes to forensic and interviewing techniques since that time has resulted in a disappearance of the allegations (not for Ariel: same stories, no matter which interviewer)
- moral [and religious] panic (not for Ariel: more like derision and general apathy)
- spreading disproven or exaggerated stories as fact (not for Ariel: stories have not been disproven, and the children have not overly exaggerate their story over the extraordinary nature of the event)
- when juries were able to see recordings or transcripts of interviews with children, the alleged abusers were acquitted (so the interviews were actually not credible nor convincing. Not the case for Ariel; it’s the interviews that are unsettling)
- linked to dissociative identity disorder ([…] also known as multiple personality disorder or MPD) (no such diagnosis was suggested regarding the Ariel children)
- over-use of hypnosis and other suggestive techniques by therapists (no hypnosis for Ariel)
- altered state of consciousness induced by hypnosis (no altered state of consciousness in Ariel children)
- sexual abuse can cause massive systemic repression of memories or dissociation (no sexual abuse for Ariel)
- medical malpractice (no medical malpractice was reported in Ariel case)
- coercive treatment approach ceased and the patients were removed from dedicated wards, allegations of satanic rape and abuse normally ceased (the allegations have not ceased for the Ariel case after 20+ years)
- There doesn’t seem to be any specialist that actually proposed the “mass delusion” hypothesis for the Ariel School case.
- There were reportedly 60 school children who witnessed the same event (no such event reported of Satanic ritual abuse).
- The kids reported the event immediately after it happened (unlike any of the Satanic ritual cases), freely reporting the event not because they were coerced into it, but beause they were genuinely scared (unlike any of the Satanic ritual cases).
- AFAIK, their recall of the event has not changed in 20+ years (unlike any of the Satanic ritual cases).
TLDR; there’s absolutely no “mountain of evidence” that supports a link between the Ariel case and some mass delusion.
You’re trying to fit a square hypothesis in round hole, at the expense of the credibility of these children, and at the expense of impartiality.
You need to read the interviews with the children and their conflicting descriptions of what they’d seen.
Whatever was the case in Ariel School, it certainly wasn’t little green men.
Brief discussion here.
Topic closes in an hour - so no time to pursue this discussion thoroughly…
Let me first point out that this forum overflows with derision, sarcasm and biais - as demonstrated by the abondance of smiley faces like rolling eyes, sarcastic clapping hands, smug smiles and huge laughing smiles. Also demonstrated by the multiple rhetorical questions, the humorous pictures, the oral expressions (d’oh, hmm…, etc.). It makes for a very unpleasant read - but, let’s overlook the form for its contents…
The accusation that the interviewers have used leading questions in some precise cases seems to be fair - although this accusation wasn’t made in any official capacity or by any specialist. Even with the leading questions objection in mind, some clear basic features to the event are still evident and coherent between the various testimonies.
For instance everyone seems to agree that some sort of vehicle was actually seen by the children, that’s a good starting point.
In your forum, I see a ‘unpainted trailer/caravan’ hypothesis, and an ‘helicopter’ hypothesis. Both hypothesis dismiss the fact that children can easily recognize and identify these vehicles, yet they were confused by the vehicle they have seen.
From the interviews and reports we can derive many other distinctive features: vehicule was either strongly glinting light, or glowing as some mentionned; vehicle was virtually silent, or light whislting sound; vehicle was either of multiple colors, or glowing; vehicle did not leave any evident tracks or traces; vehicle arrived/disapeared abrutly; vehicle did not produced any very strong draft or cloud of dust and debris.
Most of these features contradict the ‘unpainted trailer/caravan’, and an ‘helicopter’ hypothesis.
So we’re still left with square hypothesis for a round hole, in a clear intent to dismiss the extraordinary features of the testimonies.
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