Dort. Mea culpa. I just remembered when that happened, and accidentally conflated the two. 
Usually I’m better about geography.
Point still stands, though, even if the linked story is not directly relevant (for which I apologize); saying “We’re not racist! But…” is still an admission of having racism problems. Edited the post.
I guess it depends who “we” are, and whether there’s an ideological link between antisemitic Muslims and white supremacists, apart from their hatred of Jews. It seems to me that they base their hatred on very different foundations, and you’re unlikely to see much overlap in their adherents, if any.
Point. Ironically, I’ve seen (admittedly online) a self-proclaimed black supremacist and a Neo-Nazi white supremacist figuratively shake hands and agree to be friends because they agree that the Jews are Evil and need to be purged. That was surreal.
Please. No one said that. Some people who are from the Netherlands have pointed out that their society still has racist elements.
To be clear, I’m not denying that white antisematism is on the increase or that Jewish communities are at risk, it’s just that every example I’ve heard of in recent years has been from jihadists. It becomes a confusing argument when we blame white Europeans for racism because of resistance to Islamic immigration and for attacks on Jews, which are mainly done by Islamic immigrants.
The “insanely Homogenous country” I wondered if that were the case. I am living with /renting from a couple who are first generation immigrant Dutch. They have so much common ground, habits, beliefs, etc. It’s like there is no other way to be. I can imagine what living there would be like.
I think the main thing that I find surprising as an American used to a much physically larger country is that what Germans call the Outback would just be suburbs here. I have to drive for three or four hours to get “out there” where there are no cities or people, really. It isn’t an hour outside of town. If you REALLY want to get where things are empty, you’re thinking of a half day drive or more on a highway.
??
I’ve heard some seriously anti-Semitic shit come casually out of the mouths of French people (who were white French).
TANSTAAFL: a very American phrase that Americans have extreme difficulty applying to their own government (mostly because it was popularised by libertarians).
The corollary to which is CCMYBALM, or Civilization Costs Money, You Billionaire-Ass Lickin’ Motherfuckers.
Which is why they want to take their toys and either go Galt or implement Mad Max. If “civilization” means “having to share with people not like me”, even if all they’re sharing is a degree of empathy… well, they’re not for it.
Yeah. Still catching up on the thread. Graccus stated the same thing a bit later than what I replied too.
The definition of what is included in civilization is the next battle, as in “something more than wage slavery and private political militias”.
I think the issue of antisemitism coming from jihadist is a complicated one in how it relates to the right wing in Europe. I think that “the threat” to some sort of “Europeanness” has always been aimed at some scapegoat, right? I think that since many Muslims in Europe are perceived as cultural outsiders (never mind that Islam is very much a part of European culture and heritage, unless one wants to imagine the Balkans as not being a part of Europe), they are very much the focus of anti-immigrant rage. This is not to deny that jihadists are dangerous or that they indeed target Jews (they indeed do that), but to imagine it’s the preponderance of Muslim immigrants is, at the very least problematic. I think that there is indeed a strong wave of anti-Muslim sentiment and that the problem of jihadism in Europe is exacerbated by anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe itself.
Honest question, are you saying that some cultural experiences fundamentally defy all description? Or are you only saying that it would take more words and back-and-forth conversation than the format of an internet forum readily facilitates?
The first question I would always ask is, are the wealthy and the corporate elite paying their fair share? The thing about Clinton is that she didn’t propose raising taxes on the working class. As she said, go where the money is. Much as I disagreed with a lot of her policy positions (while being glad that at least she had policy positions to disagree with), I can’t say I found her tax structure any worse than the current regime, and arguably better, if not ideal.
If anything, this is part of the problem - the history of Muslims in Christian countries and Christians in Muslim ones is long and has been viewed by both as an existential threat. Neither side comes out looking good and the fact that there’s history doesn’t count in their favour.
As for suggesting that it’s the preponderance of Muslims, I never made that claim or suggested it. I did say that recent attacks that have led some insurers to stop covering a Jewish kindergarten have predominantly been carried out by Islamists, despite the fact that they are not the only ones who hate Jews.
The history of the Ottoman Empire and comparing that to Europe at the same time would reveal a rather big difference, though. Religious minorities, on the whole fared better for much of the history of the Ottoman empire, precisely because they were an important supportive tax base (especially in the Balkans). There were plenty of examples of the imperial center siding with religious minorities on local overreach. There were certainly examples of religious discrimination in Muslim majority countries, but it’s not better or worse than in Europe and in some cases, better.
But my point here is not to paint power structures (in either case) as being free from discrimination. My point is that many muslims, most especially those feeling political violence and often religious persecution, are facing some of that in Europe, which is driven in part by right wing parties attempting to drum up popular support among people who are worried about the future.
I didn’t mean that you did, rather than political operatives on the right are doing so.
It’s an odd situation, since there are quite a few examples of religious persecution and aggression by Muslim immigrants in Europe (not just against the Jewish community either). However, I think with any group the important thing is to find the majority that wants peace and work with them rather than labelling them based on the actions of a few.
Racists seem to get along with other racists they hate much better than people who reject the embrace of racism*, because they consider embracing racism as natural and have more respect for someone of a race they hate who shares that view than anyone of any race that repudiates it.
*I don’t say non-racists, because everyone has some internalized racism and, like all our baser instincts, character is measured on whether one embraces or rejects it.
I’ve encountered similar situations, and there’s usually still a misunderstanding that it would be undiplomatic to correct, but which always bothers me. Usually the white liberal person who’s mistake is corrected is embarrassed about having homogenized all Asian people, whereas usually the Chinese (and sometimes Japanese) person is more annoyed because they’re mildly racist against Japanese (and sometimes Chinese) people for historical reasons stretching back centuries. If the correction were posed as, to a Chinese person that would be as bad as it is for him to be mistaken for a Jew, you’d get a very different response.
Given that he was a drunk redneck at a rural metal concert I am not sure that embarrassment at a failure to live up to liberal ideals was the main problem. Rather it seemed that the idea of being lumped together with the freaks from the wrong side of the state border was something to which he could relate.
Ah, I misunderstood the context of the discussion. My bad.
I think it’s better to think of the local slang as actually meaning “out in the backyard”. Or ironically noting the sharp divide between the metro and rural areas.
