2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine (Part 3)

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Hot Fuzz Shame GIF

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A good explanation from the KOS article above that the cluster bombs would have great effect on Russian artillery units. I’ve always assumed they were mainly for killing foot soldiers and vehicles.

They should prove to be particularly effective against Russian artillerymen operating towed artillery, such as the towed 120 mm mortars upon which Russian troops have become increasingly dependent.

The munitions have been deemed ineffective when used in massive quantities to attack guerillas or insurgents, but are considered highly effective at attacking entrenched conventional infantry. Artillery may take five to 15 rounds to hit such infantry positions, but a single cluster artillery round or missile can be used to take out the position, resulting in major ammunition savings.

Russian artillery units attempting to flee the scene before a HIMARS strike can take them out would have to run or tow their weapon thru a spread of bomblets.

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Yes, cluster bombs are nasty, and in a perfect world they would be banned worldwide. But it seems weird to start worrying about their use in Ukraine now. Both Russia and Ukraine have been using their stocks of Soviet-made cluster bombs since the start of the war. And the possibility of collateral damage to civilians feels insignificant compared to the immediate danger of Russians deliberately targeting civilians with all kinds of weapons, including cluster bombs, or the dangers of kidnapping, deportation, torture, rape and murder for those living under Russian occupation. These are just some of the rockets carrying cluster warheads that were fired at Kharkiv last year:

So if US-supplied cluster bombs can realistically help Ukrainians drive off the invaders - and the consensus seems to be that they can - their use will probably be a net benefit to civilian well-being. (This is different from other nasty stuff like chemical or biological weapons which would be useless as weapons of war, in addition to being just generally awful.)

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Cluster bombs aren’t intended to lay around unexploded. Thats what mines are for. They are supposed to explode on impact.

When dropped the munitions spread out and carpet the area, with all the bomblets detonating. However the bomblets have a high percentage that fail to detonate on impact (for a variet of reasons) which is why they tend to lay around in an armed but unexploded state.

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Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking about a Russian land mine projectile system I read about recently.

Nasty weapons these things are.

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I guess a nice reminder that they are really only opposed because they aren’t useful to a modern army, rather than out of any real concern about how horrible they are. Should we ever find a way to make them effective, it will be right back to Haber’s “death is death, however inflicted”. :face_exhaling:

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Republican members of Congress specifically noted in a joint letter calling for DPICM to be included in future aid for Ukraine that was sent to President Biden in March. “The United States has nearly three million of these rounds in its inventory – much of it located on U.S. and allied bases in Europe.”

“Alleviating the pressure on U.S. and allied munitions supplies” is a particularly distasteful reason for sending them to Ukraine. Especially when Ukraine troops are going to have to advance through the areas that are scattered with the 14-20% which failed to explode on impact or after the timed fuse, followed by the Ukrainian public in the years to come (not many I hope).

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Ukrainian soldiers won’t advance through fields that might contain unexploded mines or cluster munitions. They will follow safe routes that their sappers have cleared and marked. The Russian defensive lines are surrounded by minefields anyway, so unexploded cluster munitions will only add to the mine clearing work that is already necessary.

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He’s a master of disguise.

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As I understand it, it is possible to do mine clearance under cover of night but, because cluster munitions are often found caught in vegetation above ground as well as up to 30cm below the surface, they are less easy to detect and dispose of at night.

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Mine plows would deal with buried munitions.

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Breaching vehicles are not immune.

There are other methods like the British Army’s Python, but I do not think Ukraine has any of those.

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Ukraine has M58 MICLIC and the Soviet UR-77 Meteorit.

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On the point of advancing, @GagHalfrunt has already explained how the troops will advance. My impression is that it’s preferable to clear a path through a cluster bombed area than it is to fight through the troops dug in there. So short term, they have tactical value.

As for post-war cleanup and risk to civilians, considering the huge amount of mines and cluster munitions already used by the Russians (and the old stockpiles already expended by Ukrainians), the usage of US munitions almost feels like a rounding error. Ukraine is already looking at decades of cleanup as it is.

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