Of course you may be right. I’m just not ready to label the people who reported seeing melted steel as truthers. I think it’s likely that some quite rational people thought they saw melted steel and I have no reason to doubt them since it’s entirely possible to have melted steel from that kind of collapse without having to go in to tin foil hat land. That’s all.
3 Likes
These are the 9/11 truthers that all y’all should be listening to…
On September 11th 1973, US-backed General Pinochet overthrew the democratically elected leader of Chile, Salvadore Allende.
Over 40,000 Chileans became victims of Pinochet’s terror. In response, the Nixon administration committed more money, more training, more torture equipment.
Edit: waiting for Spain to get it’s hands on Kissinger…
22 Likes
Bin Laden was sponsored by himself. He came from a very rich family.
And even if the Saudi security apparatus monitored him, so what? By the time he was a major threat to the Saudis, he was based in Afghanistan.
4 Likes
I dunno, this article doesn’t jibe with my read on the Truthers and other conspiracy theorists.
I mean, I get that it takes all kinds of colors to paint a crazy rainbow, so I’m not denying the existence of these mutually supportive bands of Truthers. But from lurking on those boards far longer than I should have, I got the impression that they were primarily motivated by the thought of being the smartest guy in the room. Which is a problem when the next conspiracist over also wants that credit, and more of a problem the closer his ideas are to yours.
I saw this dynamic play out more times than I can count:
A: [blah blah jet fuel steel beams]
B: Hold on! That can’t be right! The official story says […]!
A: Hey, man. I know it’s tough to accept. I’ve been there. It hurts to realize that you’ve been lied to. All I ask is that you keep an open mind, and let the facts speak for themselves.
the next thread over
A: [blah blah jet fuel steel beams]
C: No no no. All wrong. Jet fuel AND HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, steel beams WITH MOLYBDENUM IMPURITIES. Get it now?
A: You fucking NSA stooge! You’d love for us to get sidetracked on your molybdenum nonsense, wouldn’t you?! And those beams were coated with molybdenum-laced paint back in the 1970s! Are we supposed to believe that this goes back that far?
C: You would if you had even the first fucking clue of how deep this goes, you goddamn sheep!
A: HURRRRRRR!
C: HURRRRRRR!
What’s really amazing about this kind of Truther is how little they seem to be bothered by living in a world in which the Rosicrucians are tapping their phones and whatnot, as long as they can take satisfaction in having seen through the grand facade.
10 Likes
Hey, keep on knocking those straw persons down, I’m sure it’s really getting you somewhere.
On September 11th 1973, US-backed General Pinochet overthrew the democratically elected leader of Chile, Salvadore Allende.
And it was never a secret.
Heck, truthers like to point out the Manhattan Project as proof that the US government could keep a secret.
Which ignores the fact that many scientists outside the project figured it out ahead of time based on what scientists got called away and what materials suddenly had shortages. And it ignores that Germany, Japan, Russia and other governments knew about it ahead of time. And of course that once the main event happened, once the first bomb was dropped, EVERYONE knew about it.
By both your Pinochet standard and the Manhattan Project standard, the 9/11 “conspiracy” would be fully exposed by 9/12 and fully documented within weeks.
God forbid that people want definitive answers about the most traumatic event that ever happened to the US.
Exactly who are they hurting with their research and theories? And the idea that they’re disrespecting the dead is laughable. If I was killed in a terrorist attack, I sure as hell would want people to keep investigating all facets of it until all details of it were discovered (or at least as much as possible).
Of course there are some extremely wacky theories, but you can’t doubt the intentions of the “truthers”.
In light of a long pattern of shady behavior by the US (and other governments), why do you choose to attack the citizens that want to find the truth, rather than being vigilant about the activities of the government? It seems that accusations of “truthers” being smug should be turned inwards towards yourself.
1 Like
Their personal credibility.
Sure you can, as with climate change pseudoskeptics.
8 Likes
I’m certainly not disappointed with this post, but for future reference, is it okay to self-nominate for that list? 
2 Likes
Why do you care about their personal credibility? And I fail to see any negative intentions from the “truthers”. At least with climate change skeptics, there’s PLENTY of reasons to doubt their intentions.
Amazes me to this day that there was anyone inside academia at the time who didn’t know about the Manhattan Project.
4 Likes
God forbid that people want definitive answers
Except that they have a well-earned reputation for denial when handed definitive answers. When they parrot the “not hot enough for steel to melt” fallacy, and you mention that temperatures were easily hot enough for steel to lose half its structural strength, they’ll respond with “but what about (10 more easily disproven fallacies).” And then they’ll be back to repeating the same fallacy or outright lie the next day.
Exactly who are they hurting with their research and theories?
The gullible. Those who DO want definitive answers, but haven’t done some research of their own.
but you can’t doubt the intentions of the “truthers”.
Of course not. They’re in it to monetize the wingnuts.
30 years ago the gullible and stupid were monetized by an entire industry peddling UFO, sasquatch, Lock Ness Monster and whatnot books, magazines, videos, lectures and trinkets. But political conspiracy theories have proved far more lucrative. North American Union, Amero, FEMA Death Camp, HAARP, birther, gun confiscation and of course 9/11 conspiracy theories are making a lot of money for a lot of people.
16 Likes
And I never said or implied that it was a secret, so your point is???
Monetization of UFO and sasquatch baloney is hot again, it’s where we found this guy:
10 Likes
In fairness to the Titanic it wasn’t designed to be unsinkable so much as even when the hull ruptured it should have stayed up long enough for other ships to get there.
Nobody really counted on a side on graze opening her up like a sardine can.
Pretty sure the numbers have been run and if it’d been a front on collision she would have stayed up long enough for help to get there.
1 Like
If not, you can always be disappointed you can’t self-nominate.
The system works!
2 Likes
If it looks like a duck…etc… Watching all the fun that day I saw what looked like 2 (maybe) controlled demolitions of buildings that were hit by jets just one hour earlier and then one definitely controlled demolition of a building that was hit by some debris and had some small fires and few broken windows. I saw red dust - iron oxide. I heard firemen saying they heard multiple explosions. I heard Bush say there would be no investigation. I watched them haul the evidence err, debris away under guard - to China. I am an engineer and consider myself a scientist. Remember the Gulf of of Tonkin, the resulting full on Vietnam war accompanied by a heroin epidemic?? and now the WTC attacks and full on full on Middle East War(S) and the accompanying heroin epidemic? The Gulf of Tonkin attack that was the basis for 50K dead American boys - NEVER HAPPENED. So you can say I need conspiracy therapy but I still say looks like, sounds like, and walks like a duck to me.
1 Like
The problem, @timehof, is that you seem to be a reasonable person.
Reasonable person: the government’s selling a pretty far-fetched conspiracy theory, which does not account for every observable fact, in order to justify a fundamentally unjustifiable invasion of Iraq.
Truthers: BATSHIT CRAZY EASILY DISPROVED NONSENSE (and some disturbing loose ends, most notably concerning the 3rd tower collapse).
Reasonable person: well, what about that 3rd tower anyway?
The Mobbe: YOU ARE A TRUTHER WE WILL MAKE FUN OF THINGS YOU NEVER SAID THE GOVERNMENT THEORY IS PERFECT THERE ARE NO LOOSE ENDS!!!
8 Likes
I disagree. Everyone seems to be agreed that “conspiracy theories” and “conspiracy theorists” are horrible, deplorable things and engaging in armchair analysis of the latter. I think it makes a lot of sense to bear in mind that actually there are such things as conspiracies. And I think it’s generally a good idea to avoid armchair psychoanalysis of anyone, no matter how contemptible one finds them to be.
If you’re going to claim that not all people who harbor suspicions about the events of 9/11/2001 are contemptible, then maybe we could get a more rigorous definition of “truther” to work with? Which sorts of suspicions are OK and which aren’t? Evidently doubting anything to do with engineering, eyewitness accounts, and photographic documentation is enough to make one a “truther”. Is that exhaustive, or are there other doubts I’m not allowed to consider as well?
3 Likes
In addition to the key differences you’ve already pointed out, there’s also the matter of it being considerably easier to find participants ready to get on board with the cause. After all, which would be the easier sell?
A: Hey there, super-scientists! We’d like to give you a shit-ton of research money to test your theories in applied physics, harnessing the power of the atom to create a new weapon to help us fight enemies abroad. If successful you would be helping your country win a war that’s already cost millions of innocent lives. Afterward, you’d get bragging rights and the respect of your countrymen for the rest of your life.
B: Hey there, black ops agents! We’d like to give you the opportunity to break every oath you’ve ever taken and slaughter thousands of innocent Americans in a fake terrorist attack. If successful you would be helping provide a flimsy pretense for a war against an unrelated country, destabilizing the entire region and costing thousands more of your brothers-in-arms to die for no goddamn reason at all. Afterward, you’d spend the rest of your life wracked with guilt and the knowledge that you could never, ever, ever leak a single word. In fact we’d probably just kill you to keep you quiet anyway.
8 Likes
