Brexit wins: Britain votes to exit the European Union

That’s better. Needs a sllluuurrrp subtitle though. Any BBers want to add one and send it to the gif bank?

The central justification used for the creation of modern IRA groups and Northern Sinn Fein is as follows. The IRA was never disbanded, and the Dáil was never formally concluded. As such the formation of the Irish Republic, and their current government can not supersede those bodies, and are thus invalid. As is any of their acts. Including the bifurcation of the country, and Independence from the UK. Early Northern groups claimed secret orders from Michael Collins dictating they keep fighting, and even presented forged documents to that effect. Making them the actual legitimate heirs to the Irish revolutionary government and military.

This is all quite interesting because there’s a grain of truth to it. The early IRA wasn’t disbanded, it still exists. As the IDF, the Republic’s Military. And likewise the original Dáil was continued on directly as one of Ireland’s houses of Parliament. Your modern IRA groups, particularly the more powerful ones tend to view the Republic as invalid. And among their goals are not just forcing the UK out, but replacing the Irish government with one of their choosing. Given all that they are not as popularly presented a direct continuation of the Irish War of Independence, but an after the fact continuation of the Irish Civil War. And a direct continuation of the faction that both instigated and lost that conflict (as well as the faction that assassinated Collins, making the early invocation of his name somewhat odd). In fact during the Troubles, Northern Republican groups occasionally traveled South to carry out attacks on Irish soil against Irish people and targeted at the Irish government. The primary goal being independence for NI, and the secondary one being the replacement of the current Irish Government with their own faction.

This is one of the major sources of tension I was referring to there. There seems to me to be more resentment in the South over all that than there is support for Northern Republicanism, of the violent/IRA strain or otherwise. As noted I do not think that most pro-independence Northerners buy into that, or that its still the driving factor there that it once was (as the IRA groups have lost a lot of their influence and Sinn Fein has fought to legitimize itself by cutting ties). But it still sits at the ideological root, and drives a lot of anger and disdain in the South, and a lot of resentment across the border. Its also what I was talking about when I say a political quagmire. Your Northern Republican groups don’t just go away with independence or re-unification. In large part because they are not amenable to NI being governed by the current Irish government. And of course your Unionist groups likely get a shot in the arm.

That’s the thing isn’t it. First and foremost you wouldn’t want the South to support the North at the level that the UK does. Because the UK kind of doesn’t. The thing I keep hearing on the issue out of both NI and the South is that the largest problem in British and Northern relations at this point is neglect. Almost all of the economic development, support and development funds, etc. Coming into Northern Ireland over the last 20 years have come through the EU not via the UK. Which is a large part of why that country voted to remain (and similarly why Scotland did) so heavily. Without EU membership it can’t be guaranteed (and I’ve seen no indication its even been considered) that the UK is willing to step up to replace all that support. Ireland largely can’t step up to provide that level of support. For one they receive large amounts of EU support themselves. For two their economy has largely been in the shitter since 08, well above and beyond much of Europe. While things seem to have stabilized and improved the last few years, that’s a relatively fragile situation. And it seems fairly uncertain exactly what’s going to happen given the inevitable economic down turn in all of Europe because of this shit. More over there seems to be a lot of hemming and hawing, and in some cases down right panic on how to keep the border open and how (and whether) the Republic will be able to maintain their greater involvement in Northern Ireland without the EU. Suddenly all that greater cooperation doesn’t happen via the EU. It now happens via a UK government that has largely seemed happy to let NI rot.

Which is why I say re-unification seems far more probable now than ever before. A cratering NI deprived of EU support is dangerous for everyone involved. Re-unification keeps NI in the EU, completely solves any cross border/cooperation issues. The EU has an active interest in continuing to support Ireland as a whole, to countermand the damage caused by Britain’s exit. The Republic has an interest because it goes the closest to preserving the status quo, and may be one of few approaches to avoiding disaster. The North given their vote in Brexit seems like they might be more amenable to it over all (remember they haven’t left because there hasn’t been enough popular support for the idea, even among Catholics.) Down South support for the general idea is pretty pervasive. But it seems to me when its presented as something that might happen right now a lot of that support is less vocal. I’ve heard a lot of “eventually” and “when they get their shit together” over the years. This mess very well may erode all that. A lot of progress on fixing the issues that have traditionally made it untenable has been made. And Brexit makes it pretty likely that those things will regress with out a significant change (like re-unification).

Obviously the UK has an active interest in keeping both NI and Scotland in the fold. The break up of the UK would be an unmitigated disaster, and the surest sign that this whole shit show was insanity from the start. Which is why you see the UK, pro-leave, and Unionists saying the requirements for a border poll haven’t been met. Near as I can tell they’re right, technically. Sinn Fein is arguing that the results of the Brexit vote itself satisfy the requirements under the Good Friday Accord for majority support on a vote being held. That’s sort of a stretch. But the voting results, and popular anger and global confusion about all this shit indicate that the requirements could be met sometime soon. If Scotland gets another independence vote, which seems likely. And especially if it pans out (which I think would be likely, given how close it was last time). Then the UK sort of has to give NI the same, requirements met or not. The refusal to consider it would be a really good way of turning popular opinion in favor of a border poll and re-unification (given the context). Meaning the vote happens anyway, and the pro-UK side has a greater chance of losing). The South in this situation could be more likely to help push for that than they have been in the past, dependent on how they opt to deal with the fall out.


Yet you just tone policed my choice of gifs…


Yeah, sorry 'bout that, but I felt that it’s been a little overused considering all the great options we have in the gif bank.

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That is… wow.


What IS it about condescension that so often makes those who condescend fail to realize they’re condescending?


Sadly, that’s probably much more common than will be reported. The color line of the 20th century as described by WEB DuBois is still with is and isn’t going away any time soon.


Because some people are just speaking THE TRUTH, didn’t you know that? /s


There you go, there’s some condescension. You were right.

Just calling them as I see them.

John Peel used to play a Welsh Rap Band called something like, “Phluber Phlithog” (that’s my terrible attempt at phonetic spelling); they always sounded so angry, as only Welsh Rap can,

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This is how comedy and travel writer Bob Harris described Welsh in his book Who Hates Whom:

“Up rose a nationalist party called the Plaid Cymru, which involves nothing plaid. Incomprehensibility has been Wales’s main weapon ever since. (Cymru means “Wales,” and you are about to mispronounce it badly. Really. The Welsh alphabet doesn’t care what you think. Take your best shot.) [. . .] Cymru, finally, is pronounced “Kum-ree.” Told you. The Welsh name for the UK is Teyrnas Unedig Prydain Fawr a Goledd Iwerddon. You can pronounce this correctly by gargling a Styrofoam ball while hitting your neck with a mallet.”



Nobody expects the tone police!


This right here, this seemingly innocuous comment is a significant cause of many of the break-downs in communications between people. It is not possible for humans to separate feelings from facts. So deep seated is this condition that the mind will actually trick itself into believing what it wants to believe. While rationality and reason often prevail, they are driven by emotional and spiritual components. Not interested in debating factual basis for spiritual, just letting you know that it is part of my perceptual framework. Feelings, beliefs, whether rational or irrational are an integral part of the human condition, trying to separate from the whole is foolish and will lead to folly. This is not to say that we are to let feelings rule but to relearn what it means to whole, a reconnecting of the body, mind and soul. I enjoy the spoken word and if you will allow me to indulge my ego for a moment I will share what I mean through some lines I have written.

Impossible is not only a word, it can also be a lie. ‘Nothing’ is impossible. How do we know if you never try? Imagine a world without the Wright Brother’s and everyone else, “Who has ever dreamed they could fly?”. Believing in the impossible is how to we touch the sky.

Society is the convergence of all our dreams and in ignorance we become the makers of nightmares which haunt us even when we are not asleep. Keeping us from the rest we all so desperately need.

The secrets of life are not only seen through the observation of science, it is also through belief, opening the door to the mystery of being complete finding hope in the impossible and faith in the eternal unseen.

There is more to life than scientific discovery and achieving. There is a wonder we find in the miracle of being. An expression of the eternal unseen. An omnipotent, omniscient force that breathed life into nothing giving emptiness meaning.

To simply dismiss what you label “ideological arguments” is to essentially throw the whole equation off. Think of it as the difference between a correct and incorrect placement of a negative or positive sign in the problem.

Now to the facts. Bureaucracy is not in and of itself bad any more than a firearm or other useful tool, device or methodolgoy used by people. The principles of bureaucracy were developed by Max Weber to help Germany during its industrial revolution at the turn of the 20th century. A formal organizational system to help businesses in the administration of the work to operate more efficient and effectively. I spent several years of my youth in Germany. I am fairly familiar with the EU. I think the initial idea behind it was great, there is something to be said for unity and the role that interdependence plays in decreasing conflict. However, to say that the EU today has become what was being presented when it was first being implemented is a gross overstatement. Being really efficient and effective at maintaining the status quo has many utilitarian benefits but in the long run leads to a decrease in innovation and creativity. While bureaucratic systems are beneficial on the small to medium scale they become unmanageable when attempted to be implemented on a grand scale. The system becomes much more susceptible to corruption, manipulation and mismanagement and not all for nefarious reasons but simply because the mechanics of how bureaucracies function are not well suited for the various societal structures of civilization. Maybe if we were like ants or bees but even then our size and abilities makes the negative effects of such a system that much more detrimental. Thanks for explaining your point further, I appreciate your insight. :slight_smile:

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(Except women speaking in public)


Interestingly the constitutional lawyers (of the EU) are already suggesting that since Greenland, the Faroes, Jersey, Guernsey and Man are subject to EU Member States but are not, in fact, effectively in the EU, the reverse could theoretically apply with Scotland and NI staying in the EU and England remaining part of the United Kingdom while being out. It would be a reverse - tail wagging dog - but there’s nothing actually there to prevent it. Represented as a Venn diagram with the EU and the UK intersecting, Scotland and NI (and Gib?) would be in the intersection.

Until in final revenge for Culloden Scotland invades impoverished Northern England, its armies unite with those of London, Bristol, Cambridge and Leicester, and defeat the rump of the British Army that is loyal to dictator-for-life Farage. The ultimate Civil War re-enactment with a twist. Or a new Glorious Revolution, with a nearly bloodless coup from the Netherlands.


Hey, we gave you your whole own thread!


This referendum has really shown up how lightweight the men are compared to Nicola Sturgeon, and Ruth Davidson is doing a better job of being the face of modern conservatism than Cameron ever did. But Sayeeda Warsi came in for terrible abuse when she announced that she had ceased to support an exit because of the sheer awfulness of the Leave campaign. And much of it wasn’t from male Muslims. @pixleshifter may disagree, but I am convinced that sheer old fashioned racism was a core tenet of the Leave campaign.