And no one will say anything about you using it, just like the last time, this came up (but thanks for the act of solidarity).
Are you sure this is the right place for this conversation? It sounds an awful lot like “chat”.
5 Likes
I don’t think Johnson is a racist. I think he’s an opportunist. I think he expected Remain to narrowly win, which would be enough to trigger Cameron’s resignation without utterly buggering the country, and then, as the figurehead for the Leave campaign, strongly backed by Tory party members, he’d get to be PM. Gove and Farage are true believers, Johnson is not. Just an ambitious unprincipled hack.
Plan B was for Cameron to have to stick around and do all the difficult negotiation crap after Leave won, and take all the blame, letting Johnson waltz in after. The referendum is entirely Cameron’s fault but I don’t blame him for telling them all to eff off and quitting immediately. Let Johnson deal with his own shitty mess.
Personally, I feel that my UK citizenship is worth pretty much fuck all to me now. I might look at getting rid of it after I sort out my US one.
10 Likes
Fine. No more from me on this… sorry I derailed everyone.
1 Like
Honestly I think you’ll see a lot of the EU weighing its options so something like that happening wouldn’t surprise me. I just find it somewhat unlikely that Scotland sticks around. Their last vote was very close, and support for remain was large there, and a new vote seems likely. If a vote happens it seems like the EU issue is divisive enough to make up the gap in the Independence vote. That’s going to drive something on the NI side, and I think the UK will have to allow a vote simply to avoid something much uglier. I couldn’t be sure how that would turn out though.
NI and Scotland remaining EU and England Wales leaving would be a compromise position, a half measure. The UK attempting to avoid its own breakup. And it could work. But its still a reduction in UK control and involvement of its two member nations. And I don’t know how well that flies. I think the answer lies in whether Ireland tacks toward the UK or the EU in trying to keep itself stable, and whether both Ireland and the EU will back NI and Scotland remaining in the EU despite whatever the UK does. Last time Scotland was threatened with going to the back of the line with membership, but the EU has an interest in finding a way around that now. And since NI path out of the UK is directly codified as re-unification at this point they side step the issue. Depending on how far the UK goes, and how much the EU wants to prevent other countries from following this path a deliberate Republic of Ireland supported effort to break up the UK might be in the offing.
4 Likes
That’s precisely what I was trying to suggest. He got in bed long enough with the real racists to get the job done and now seems unhappy about the outcome. I think it points us in the direction of how dangerous these sorts of political machinations can be, especially when you start employing racism to get something done. Again, not to godwin this thread (although I’ve apparently already derailed it), but the conservative parties that aligned with you know who also thought they could control him as well.
10 Likes
Are you sure this is the right place for this conversation? It sounds an awful lot like “chat”. 
isn’t any comment “chat” in some sense?
7 Likes
At the behest of the Westminster Government, which at the time was seen to be part of keeping the EU stable.
At the moment, I imagine that many European politicians feel the way about Johnson, Gove, Cameron and co. the way that Disraeli felt about Gladstone:
“If Mr. Gladstone fell into a pond that would be a catastrophe. But if someone were to pull him out, that would be a disaster.”
4 Likes
When you try to delegitimize somebody’s vote, you don’t change his mind, only his willingness to talk about it.
The polling favored Remain because any other position was being characterized as ignorant and racist. But in the privacy of that polling booth, with a curtain between you and everyone else and anonymity ensured, they could say what they really wanted. Which they did.
2 Likes
Given the attitude to women of many of the Leavers, I thought it was rather relevant.
5 Likes
This explanation appears to have some truth in it. Before the vote, phone polls were leaning more towards remain than ones conducted on-line.. This suggests that a number of people were more comfortable ticking the “leave” box when they didn’t have to say it out loud to a researcher on the phone/.
2 Likes
I think you’re deliberately ignoring what the proponents of Brexit actually said and did so you can paint aggressors as victims. Sure, some voters were merely stupid, rather than bigoted idiots. But those stupid people weren’t blind to a campaign demonizing certain immigrants as it’s central and fundamental plank. You should acknowledge the bigotry in the campaign and from the supporters before pointing out that the supporters don’t like people pointing it out. Sure people motivated by bigotry feel shame about it. That makes polling harder. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be ashamed - what they supported was absolutely shameful.
6 Likes
Prosperous areas like Solihull and North Dorset voted Leave, as did the area in which Nissan is based. Leave tried to make people fearful of immigrants and non-white people and they were very successful at it. The economic evidence is that immigration has only the most marginal effects on wages, but Johnson was caught (by Salmond) lying about it. And nobody explained to the unemployed and the elderly that immigrants paying taxes actually raised the social fund, because it was assumed that any positive comments about immigration would increase the Leave vote.
2 Likes
I just want to note that I didn’t say most of those things and will let someone reply who did.
2 Likes
No such place. There are the United States, which out of respect we capitalize. You know, basic respect.
Not unlike how you capitalize ‘Squad Leader’.
3 Likes
Right. Like I said the EU now has a big incentive to find another way. If the UK fractures over this then basically giving Scotland the UK’s spot, and NI just becomes part of an extent EU member nation is a pretty simple way to handle it. And the EU, in the short term at least, has an active interest in making this as hard on the UK as possible. Both as a deterant and to keep the economic fallout contained.
But long term it might not be so hot. It’s pretty putative on the UK, which could backfire politically. But it also kind of destabilizes Britain, and perhaps the British isles as a whole in a sort of frightening way. So you won’t see the US backing it anytime soon, given our connections to Britain. So I think it’s possible, but not necessarily likely. And more of a surprisingly good/practical idea than its ever really been.
I do think Scotland is gone if their vote happens. Almost certainly. And if Scotland goes everything goes really weird.
When you try to delegitimize somebody’s vote, you don’t change his mind, only his willingness to talk about it.
That’s pretty much half the battle. Thanks for the advice
The polling favored Remain because any other position was being characterized as ignorant and racist.
It helped that many ignorant racists held that position.
5 Likes
Scotland having another referendum certainly will shake things up, unfortunately mostly for Scotland.
To join the EU one must be an independent state, have its own currency, have a central bank and have a good international credit rating with that bank. Even if Scotland did become independent it would have to fulfil the other criteria, which would take a long while. There’s also the chance of a veto from any of the other members. So Scotland may find itself outside the UK and outside the EU as well, which may not bode well.
But Nicola Sturgeon is to be holding talks with the EU, so we’ll have to wait and see how those go.
Yeah I realise its complicated but the EU has a lot of incentives to find a way to make it work if Scotland votes itself out of the UK. Which just seems the most likely result should they vote. The long process of re-joining the EU through traditional means with full EU support might be preferable to the Scottish to weathering the storm as part of the UK.
8 Likes
This is irrelevant, however. The territory of Scotland is currently part of the EU. Scotland has devolved powers within the UK. The argument is over whether it has to leave as a result of a referendum in which another country within the UK decided to leave. This is a unique situation and will need a new approach.
4 Likes
