Continuing coronavirus happenings (Part 4)

The kids’ schools are letting the masks drop leading to a wave, in one school, of teachers saying “I had COVID, I’m immune for 8 weeks, I’m not wearing a mask”. The knock-on effects demonstrate that stupidity is also contagious, and it just adds to the (less than) subtle psychological pressure to play along.

It was with that in mind, that I was particularly struck by a quote in today’s essay by Spencer Ackerman.

And then I couldn’t escape the lesson. It’s year three of the pandemic and on some level I tacitly thought I just wouldn’t get COVID. There are tremendous psychological, social, economic and political pressures to operate as if the pandemic is over. I didn’t realize I had bought into them. That’s how, and why, I got COVID.

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Early on we didn’t buy N95s because we figured there were people that couldn’t avoid being out in public so we didn’t buy any so those people could get some. We used cloth masks that we made.

Then N95s were not available but someone I know sourced several thousand surgical masks so we bought a few boxes.

Then last summer things were looking better and N95s started to be available to regular folks so I bought a few boxes, they were still very expensive though and I did not buy any if I couldn’t look up the NIOSH number.

For a brief period at the end of the summer I could get 3M masks almost at regular prices so I bought a bunch.

I currently have about 200 - 250 3M N95s. I will share with my daughter, mom, and a couple nurses I know if they need some.

The unfortunate thing is my source for N95 all along has been Uline and those owners are nuts but because I had an account before this all hit I was able to buy any amount when they were in stock and they were not gouging so they are not as evil as I thought.

Now it’s an N95 with a surgical over the top.

tl;dr I agree, YOYO.

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False dichotomy.

We are in a pandemic with this still novel virus.
We have high infection numbers.
A huge part of immunocompromised people worldwide are still immuno-naïve.
And many will be so for a while, at least the next two to five “infection seasons”.
Also, everyone who gets infected due to own carelessness can be said to deliberately give the fucking bug the evolutionary possibly to become more infectious, or more dangerous, or both.

So, not wearing a mask in enclosed spaces where you meet some people while many infections are around is objectively unethical - but absolutely commonplace.

I do not understand why assholes like the ones on the plane do force their viewpoint on everyone, and why intelligent people like yourself seem to be buying into their narrative.

Check This Out GIF

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A lot of people seem to be reading more into my posts than what I’m actually saying. I’m not arguing that now is the right time to end the mandates. What I am arguing is that those in the government who are responsible for enacting the mandates eventually need to provide the public with the answer to one simple question: “using objective criteria/data, how will we know when we’ve reached the point where this specific mandate can be ended?”

When you say “at least the next two to five infection seasons” that’s a bit closer but still not stating what specific, measurable endpoint you’re going for. Is your endpoint a time when X% of immunocompromised folks are no longer naïve to the virus? Serious question, I really am interested in what people think and I promise not to criticize any answer that’s actually using measurable criteria.

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So you’re asking something that only an epidemiologist can answer, and because it’s not something that can be answered simply, would require a very long and technical response to even brush the surface. Cool.

One thing we’ve learned is that there are venues where, even if SARS-Cov-2 were eradicated tomorrow, we should all be masking up anyway. Interactions with immunicompromised people is one of them. And there’s a certain percentage of the population who will ignore that need, even when they are made aware that doing so will likely kill people.

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Yes! I absolutely am!! An epidemiologist is the correct person to make these calls, and the government has a lot of them on the payroll. Glad we’re on the same page.

As I said in one of my posts above, saying that all of us should continue masking forever when on public transportation is a defensible position. Thank you for clarifying that that’s where you stand.

Great!

  1. This is probably the wrong venue to reach an epidemiologist; I would suggest cdc.gov.
  2. Epidemiologists have in fact weighed in on that subject and have been ignored (and sent death threats, BTW)
  3. When their dumbed-down guidelines have actually been adopted by the government, a large percentage of the population has ignored them and said government eventually just gave up.

Glad we’re on the same page.

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When California was locked down earlier in the pandemic, the State government put out clear, measurable criteria for what metrics needed to be met (including available hospital capacity, community infection rates, etc) before various activities could resume in each county. There was a four-tiered color-coded system for counties with various activities/restrictions in each tier. The criteria was presumably defined with the help of state epidemiologists and medical professionals. I thought they did a pretty decent job designing this system and communicating to the public! Even the people who were griping about restrictions could look at the data on the state dashboard and clearly understand what the world would need to look like before the restrictions ended.

I’ve spent plenty of time on the CDC website, read a number of their reports, and even listed in live to a couple of their advisory committee meetings. And I can tell you that they have not announced the same kind of clear, measurable metrics and endpoints that California did. In the absence of such metrics it was always going to eventually end based on someone’s gut feeling, and whether that gut feeling is from a CDC official or a politician or a judge, it’s not how we should go about public policy.

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TriMet held the line for almost 24 hours

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Maybe that’s a way that China is colluding with Putin, to make inflation skyrocket even more, thereby increasing the effectiveness of fascist propaganda that helps fascist governments get into and maintain power?

big little lies hat GIF by The Ringer

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When measures, including mask mandates, are enforced or even ended isn’t decided based on gut feelings. You are painting a picture by using this phrasing, and it is not a kind one.

This pandemic is a developing situation which needs constant re-evaluation. Remember, WDKS, even after all the time.

The constant re-evaluation specifically includes other fields than epidemiology, and informes policies which are decided on by political bodies.

Those policies are negotiated in different spaces, including the scientific, but definitely also the political space. Some of the arguments in the negotiations are virological, epidemiological, and vaccinological. There are more from medical and scientific disciplines, but many of the factors and possibly derived “metrics” are not measurable, and not even clearly definable. They shift, depending on the parts we do learn shit about.

In my opinion, scientific arguments, and especially medically relevant scientific arguments are to be weighed more strongly than others, because human lifes depend on it. This is an ethical argument. If we can agree that every life has value, inherently, and inalienable rights, then why are we even having the discussion about likewise negotiated, derived, arbitrary and dumbed down measurable criteria in relation to the example of mask mandates on public transport?

If we, as a society, decide on the question of wearing a mask on public transport during a high incidence phase of a developing and ongoing pandemic while far to many people are susceptible to a highly contagious virus which kills vulnerable human beings and has proven to have long-term effects to a relevant proportion of those which it does not kill —
now, what exactly would you think how this sentence should end?

TL;DR: defining fixed clear and measurable criteria to end measures is very dangerous in a developing and highly chaotic global health crisis situation. Just keep your mask on. And accept that it is complicated, and dynamic.

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seattle is keeping theirs. go figure

i think that trevor noah’s recent point that it’s probably really hard for airline workers ( and more so public transit workers ) to enforce masks is spot on. this is probably easier on them in the short term, but much harder when everyone starts calling in sick or worse

i think at the very least mask guidelines should be based on vaccine acceptance. if everyone who could get vaxed was vaxed, id feel way better about no masks on public transport - but we’re nowhere near that

personally, id be fine with masks on transport being an actual law. the level of work needed to repeal a law would be enough that the exact metrics can be debated later. years probably

given american behavior, i think vaccine and masking laws are the only thing that would work. obviously, though that’s not the road we’re on

( eta: road. yikes. sorry about the unintentional transportation pun )

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In the US, flight attendants have shitty pay but a lot of power while in flight. They only need to inform an anti-masker what the result of their misbehavior is - to be removed from the flight by police and be put on the no-fly list - to get compliance 99.9% of the time.

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Fuck this timeline.

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True, but it doesn’t make it any easier to deal with entitled, unruly passengers.

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Follow-up to some months-old posts about the Missouri attorney general suing school districts over mask mandates:

Looks like “Covid Schmitt” is getting some comeuppance! :sunglasses:

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