EU official: all identified Paris attackers were from the EU

A dictatorship is generally considered to be a government that has total authority, and which has achieved power by force of arms, both of which describe the U.S. and pretty much all states. I don’t think that it’s hyperbolic to look at the state of things in the U.S., the context for Medievalist’s comment, and draw parallels between dictatorial policy and so-called democratic policy.

To the contrary, I think that it’s a symptom of mental illness to look at a government that has never stopped carrying out genocide, and which continues to brutalize the working classes of the developing world through abhorrent labor practices and warfare, and see anything legitimate at all about the U.S. government or the big business that it represents. Combine this so-called democracy’s lack of responsiveness, widespread violation of so-called “rights” whenever it is convenient, reoccurring themes of voter fraud and insecure voting machines, suppression of third parties in favor of the incumbent two-party system, and widely demonstrated penchant for brutality, and it’s hard to seriously consider the U.S. anything but a two-party dictatorship.

The only difference between a representative democracy like the U.S. and an honest dictatorship is a thick layer of fantasy that allows people to believe that their choices in a democracy are really meaningful and that their lives are not truly ruled over by a powerful few. To be realistic, I think that most people find a comfortable, cynical political space to occupy that lets them sleep at night (I know my vote doesn’t really count, but I’m doing my civic duty, or my candidate may be evil but he’s the lesser of two evils). After all, even honest dictatorships usually have millions of supporters, usually in the majority or near-majority; their popularity doesn’t exonerate them. Purely by habit most people in most situations will support whoever is in power.

To illustrate, what happens when protests happen in, say, Egypt (one of dozens of dictatorships over the years that have been militarily backed and funded by the “democratic” US), and when they happen in the U.S.? The government brings out police to beat them up and throw a certain number of people in prison, depending on what measure of force is convenient for those in power. The intensity of each government’s response is tailored to the strength of the social movements in each country.

Besides, what does it mean if a “democracy” was founded on slavery and genocide, or when the world’s most powerful, freedom-loving representative democracy repeatedly topples democratically elected governments, installs fascist dictators, and kills millions of people? Even if we accept that representative democracy is working inside the U.S., despite all evidence to the contrary and the millions of people who are left out, forgotten, and marginalized all in the name of the “majority,” then what are we left with–democracy for us, fascism for the black and brown peoples of the world? What does that say about the value of democracy? Who does democracy include, who does it exclude, and when does it stop being a democracy?

Looking at the history of representative democracies, and how they saved the wealth and power of the nobility when various countries transitioned away from feudalism to industrialism, I’d say that they were never representative democracies in the first place, because, faced with industrial and social revolution, those in power did what they could to hold onto what they had, which is why there are still monarchs in a lot of “democracies.” In the U.S., “all men were created equal,” but we had to wait 200 years to even see that idea enforced at the official level of electoral politics, and now we’re living out the consequences of how a country builds itself when it’s run by white supremacists and warmongers. If we were going to take democracy seriously, shouldn’t we acknowledge that the whole context that we’re born into is a sham, and start over? It’s all pretty obvious when you think about it. Democracy is a load of bullshit.

Representative democracy is simply a better means of sustaining the status quo than dictatorships, which are nowadays a last resort at maintaining unpopular systems or creating “order” in the chaos created by centuries of Western colonialism. Jean Baudrillard wrote about this very subject in Symbolic Exchange and Death. To paraphrase, he basically argued that binaries are more stable for political systems than unitary structures, and that in representative democracies (generally ruled by two-party systems), power paradoxically diffracts itself in order to become stronger. Hence why dictatorships are perpetually rocked by massive upheavals, and established representative democracies generally aren’t. However, the fundamental dictatorial structure of power is still the same–one very small, very wealthy elite controlling everything by force of arms, with or without the circus of electoral politics to make it look legitimate. After all, most dictators at least put on some kind of sham elections to ape the old democratic line, ever since absolute monarchs abandoned the idea of rule by divine right (once they realized that this was a quick path to overthrow and beheading). The U.S. is essentially no different.

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tl;dr

Can you summarize?

“United States bad and always bad”?

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Oh, I don’t know. If you could reform the KKK that would certainly look good on your resume. Or to go to another extreme, joining the KKK while wearing a dynamite vest under your robes might be beneficial to society… it would depend on the circumstances, both yours and theirs. What if you were dying of a fatal condition anyway? But as we’ve both pointed out, this stuff is highly situational. In my own situation, certainly the local Dems don’t need my help for anything, and as I mentioned I agree with many of the principles that the Republicans are founded on (such as “liberation theology”) and many of those they currently espouse (such as an inalienable right to armed self defense).

I think the US government is very responsive if you have a big fat wallet. Plutocracy is not dictatorship, eh?

More like “all forms of government concentrate power in the hands of a few, but some are less susceptible to revolution than others”

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And of those people between 0.5 and 5% share the Salafi religious beliefs of Da’esh. The Shia/Sufi/Yazidi/Ahmadiyya/etc. Muslims are persecuted by them. There are plenty of Muslims standing up but you have to go looking for them as they don’t fit with the narrative of the media.

If you want an example, the Ahmadi Muslims are explicit about being anti-terrorism and pro peace, Da’esh consider them to be heretics.

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I get where you’re coming from, for the most part, and it seems like an admirable stance, FWIW. But I did wonder about this:

Not being familiar with the term, I had to look up “liberation theology” on Wikipedia, but that article didn’t clarify what you mean. Do you refer to the GOP’s anti-slavery focus at its founding? Because I don’t think the GOP has placed a particular focus on improving the plight of the poor (as opposed to improving the plight of the overtaxed capitalist) in either of our lifetimes; at least, not as a preferred role of government. Recent popes seem to have described liberation theology as coming from a Marxist or Trotskyist viewpoint, which certainly doesn’t seem to embody a Republican mindset. So I expect I must be misunderstanding you. Can you clarify?

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Doesn’t this, actually, show the real problem with letting the refugees in? If the problem were the refugees themselves, you could hope to screen them better to keep out the terrorists, while allowing the innocent through.

But if the problem is that some percentage of their children, born in Western countries, will become terrorists, there’s no way to screen out just the terrorists; letting in the refugees is setting your country up for mass murders a generation later.

To avoid that generation-later massacre, wouldn’t you have to screen based on cruder measures of the potential of the children of the refugees to be radicalized? Ones that by necessity have a high false positive rate, like, say, whether the parents were Muslim or Christian?

Not because you have anything against the Muslim refugees themselves, but because you don’t want a massacre in 25 years committed by some tiny percentage of their children, and the only way (however unfair to the refugees) to avoid that is to have them stay as refugees in Turkey (and have their kids there) rather than allowing them to move on to your country?

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This doesn’t work if you want a pluralistic society open to outsiders instead of an inward turning, homogenized (and possibly stale) society.

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Some tiny percentage of everyone’s children turn out this way. It’s not at all isolated to refugees, and certainly not isolated to Muslim refugees.

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I’m sure a nation could increase that tiny percentage by pursuing self-destructive policies, though.

I never looked at Wikipedia’s article, hold on a sec! I’ll be back. Oh, hey, whoa, sorry about that, I had no idea! They don’t even mention Ephraim Nute, or Theodore Parker.

Yes to the anti-slavery. I was referring to a significant theological movement in the United States during and before the Bloody Kansas period, which was at the time more usually called “liberal theology” or “liberal religion”. Proponents preached that slavery was spiritually and morally harmful to everyone (including the slavers) and they invoked Matthew 25:44-46 (“as you do to the least of these you do unto me”). The Universalists and Quakers were pretty uniformly onboard with this sort of liberalism, but it split the Unitarians, Baptists and Presbyterians pretty rancorously, the Congregationalists less so. The early Republican party was very strongly influenced by this kind of intellectual and anti-fundamentalist theology, the idea that deprivation of individual freedoms was harmful to everyone, as a group.

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Okay, thanks. That’s what I thought you meant. It’s just that “liberation theology” as described on Wikipedia seemed to be such a specific (and relatively modern) concept, at least as described by Gutierrez, and didn’t seem to cover the same thing. But now I’m pickin’ up what you’re puttin’ down. :wink:

Ah… man, I miss those guys!

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A rectification is necessary: Yazidi aren’t Muslims. They aren’t even considered “People of the Book” contrary to Christians and Jews. As a result, they are treated even worse by Daesh.

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Really, it’s quite simple to process: in order to perpetrate such attacks, you need people who can mingle, in a way only a native can, unless you have the resources to train highly skilled infiltrators. The USSR had such resources for example. Daesh? Hah!

Maybe he meant to say “Republicans are weevils”… Not exactly a compliment, but hey nature ain’t evil, is it? And Weevils are very interesting beetles, some even exhibit eusociality, cool eh?

that’s of course your opinion

Last week before the attack I was speaking with a muslim, who told me “my religion is in here [points to chest]. My religion is being kind and decent to others. My religion is appreciating the beauty of the world and all its people. That’s my religion.” The only time he goes to mosque is when he’s back in his home town, since his dad is the uh, priest-guy, and naturally he respects his elders. I give him to you as an example because that was just last week, but he’s pretty typical of all the muslims I know here in Paris. They aren’t practising. They eat hallal but otherwise you’d never spot them, because they are too busy going out to nightclubs, smoking cigarettes or dope, trying to get laid, watching football and drinking beers with me at the pub, all the normal things that any other Parisian does to pass the time.

The idea that I would say to such a guy, “this mess is your responsibility and you need to do something about it,” is so fucking stupid and bigoted that I can’t even countenance it. What would he do? Even if he did go to mosque and was an active part of the practising muslim community it wouldn’t help because the actual perpetrators aren’t either of those things. They don’t take their orders from the Koran or anyone in a mosque, they take their orders from rich warlords who are involved in a straight up power grab, who use religion as an excuse in the exact same way GWB told us all he received divine guidance that told him to invade Iraq and bag up all the oil.

ISIS is doing everything it can to get us to lump all muslims in with them, and there you go lumping the shit out of them. Fool.

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Just looked at a source used on the wikipedia article and you are right. Yazidi were wrongly considered to be muslim by the west in the past but aren’t now.

Relevant:

It’s possible that this video is blocked in the US, so the gist is that this is the French Justice Minister Rachida Dati saying that the intelligence they have points to the attack being planned in Syria, but conducted by EU citizens who were born and raised there. These people were not radicalised in mosques, but rather online or in prison - she claims that this accounts for 90% of Islamic extremists.

To be clear, she’s against Merkel’s open doors policy and promotes greater surveillance, but she says that France made an error of judgement by looking at faith rather than delinquency as a predictor of radicalisation.

(Also relevant: Rachida Dati has a Moroccan father and Algerian mother, and was raised in a Muslim household)

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