I did, but the response was painted with a broad brush.
So how exactly is throwing a public fit in your plans to make yourself a better person? It appears like a distraction to continue your lack of empathy.
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I have no plans to make myself a better person in this regard. That is a part of the point; the current place where I am at is perfectly fine, and @celesteh seems to suggest a rather absolutist scale for shit-headdedness. I take exception to that.
Actually⌠(having just refreshed my memory on all the studies on Implicit Association Tests for my links above), your âsquick factorâ towards gay men can absolutely have real-world consequences even when you strongly believe you are not being affected by them (many, many, many studies, hereâs one), and itâs not a bad idea to explicitly try and rid yourself of your negative associations towards the idea of gay men kissing.
A large number of studies have focussed on various ways of âunbiasingâ (Iâll let you find some) but repeated positive exposures to the thing weâre biased against is one strong way. (Simply watching gay men kissing probably would do little, but finding positive gay role models â and seeing them kiss their partners in casual contexts â probably would).
You respond âhow dare youâ to the suggestion that you consider curing your negative reaction to gay men? Why would you want to keep that negative reaction when you know itâs illogical, and studies have shown it leads to real-world consequences even when you donât believe it does?
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Iâm not attached to the reaction. I take exception to being called a piece of shite for having it.
I donât disagree with what youâve written, really at all.
If youâre proudly homophobic (racist, misogynist, etc) why would you care that people find your personality abhorrent?
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I do not see what you are getting at.
Your shame-avoidance failsafes are preventing your personal development. But ultimately if you donât care what people think of you, youâre not really expressing that properly when acting surprised that people judge you for how you treat others
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Arguable.
I treat people with respect; weâre discussing emotions and how they are dealt with.
This isnât the case at all, and itâs pretty self-evident. I cannot shake the feeling that you are trying to misrepresent what Iâve written.
No need for the womblist slurs, nowâŚ
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You just said that you see no reason to âdealâ with how you treat others, with that revulsion. Make up your mind, weâre only talking about this because of your freakout. If you didnât angrily post about your own issues we wouldnât know about your issues.
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What nonsense. Go back and read where they wrote:
After reading [The Authoritarians][1] this doesnât surprise me at all. One has to suppose that people who are homophobic in western nations today are significantly more likely to have authoritarian personality types (that is, they are people who seek authorities to tell them what to do) since a lot of the homophobia seems to be directed from extreme religious and political organizations. It turns out people who live that like are happier than the rest of us. Maybe making decisions for yourself is hard work or something.
I do agree, though, that one could imagine that some people direct hate outward as a way of avoiding directing it inward.
Back on the unrelated grossed-out-by-gay men but aroused by lesbians issue, thereâs an easy answer: just stop gendering other people. Oh shit, thatâs not easy, is it. Fuck.
[1]: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
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I find this conversation fascinating. As a middle-aged gay man who likes kissing dudes, I still had a hard time adjusting to increasing male/male PDA on television and on the street. I never saw it as a kid. Unfamiliarity causes anxiety. Even when you do something yourself, itâs not the same as watching others do it from another perspective.
Drag queens used to upset me too. I learned to appreciate them. Thanks San Francisco / Ru Paulâs Drag Race! I invested attention in them, and learned to see their merits.
Salad dressing. Stinky cheese. Dried squid. Tofu. All horrifying at one point, then beloved after some personal experience. I have friends who are still picky eaters as adults. Itâs no fun watching them limit themselves over preconceptions, when you know the pleasures that reframing their expectations could bring.
Bigots are similarly aggravating, because they (and others) could enjoy life much more if they just stopped being so traumatized by the unfamiliar. This hesitation and anxiety are human nature and have to be deliberately opposed. You have to be trained to maintain your open mind as you age, IMO.
Even gay guys about seeing gay stuff. Nobody escapes.
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That hits me close to home. Iâm a bisexual male, and while I am attracted to some men, and not others, gay porn is not something I enjoy, while Iâm okay with straight porn. I think it might be an artifact of me not admitting to myself that I do like guys sometimes until after puberty, so all my formative sexual experiences were straight. Iâve moved on from the self-disgust I had as a teenager, thinking I was somehow messed up for being turned on by guys.
Nobody escapes indeed.
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This is exactly why Iâm been making myself learn to enjoy Belgian beers. I figure clearly other people enjoy this a lot! Why should I be left out?
@caryroys: You said âWatching men kiss has a squick factor for me,â and, when people suggested you could learn not to feel revulsion at gay men, you said âThere is nothing wrong with how I am handling my own emotions,â âI have no plans to make myself a better person in this regard,â and âthe current place where I am at is perfectly fine.â
But at the same time, you seem to agree with the articles I posted, that describe how unconscious biases have real-world effects on how people treat other people (e.g. when choosing who to hire), even when the person strongly and sincerely believes that they are being unbiased.
Yes, we get that you were initially defensive when you felt you were being called a âshite,â but it still seems bizarre that youâre claiming to be perfectly fine with your inner revulsion of gay men, when you seem to otherwise think of yourself as someone who would treat gay people equally.
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See, there is your misunderstanding. It really is just men kissing at issue. Just about every other form of affection with gay men I feel very neutral towards, even gay porn.
You might see why I feel that way, considering.
Really beautiful. Middle-aged mega-queer here. I have had some unexpected sensual experiences with people way outside my attraction, identity and experience zone in recent years that have really transformed my sense of othersâ embodiments of sensual, sensate and sexual beings through a lens of deep compassion. One of the delights has been watching my own âwell known truthsâ about my own sensual, sensate and sexual self crumble and reform.
Self-growth is a good thing people. Even when it is scary.
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This, and your defense of it, are straight up homophobia. You could do with some growth. The world will be a better place when you get over your self-righteous disgust at men kissing. I suggest seeking out opportunities to view it, and practice smiling on the inside.
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I know, right? Here, letâs see if this breaks the light for @caryroys . . .
âI feel disgust when I see two black people kissing.â
âI feel disgust when I see two fat people kissing.â
âI feel disgust when I see two Jews kissing.â
That self-righteous âhow dare youâ bullshit, and unwillingness to question their own ability to not be a bigot doesnât seem quite as apropos now, eh?
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