Exactly. Guinness looks like the world’s strongest black-as-night beer, but it’s surprisingly light with a low ABV – it’s a fine session beer.
This is very true, and still is, but the Citra and other fresh hops used for New England “hazy” style IPAs are a different beast. They make for a wonderfully juicy, almost tropical beer when drunk fresh, but don’t last long. It’s why many breweries specializing in that style don’t even sell their cans outside of the brewery. There’s a whole microbrew culture out here of places like Alchemist (Heady Topper), Bissell Brothers, and Treehouse breweries where lines form for hours before they open.
Yeah but there’s a point too far. Hops are also the culprit in beer going skunked. Light causes the alpha acids and some other compounds to break down to create some nasty shit. And the huge amount of hops in many American beers right now. Especially the really hazy, dry hopped ones. Means there’s a lot of barely suspended hop oils floating about. And they like to separate, lose flavor quickly. And can go rancid. The sort of early, boiled, hop additions that can add some preservative power (and a lot of bitterness) are a lot different than the later, less boiled, or cold steeped hopping that’s now in-style (adds more fruit and herbal notes than bitterness).
The whole thing is a sort of misunderstanding, take it too far sort of thing that’s endemic in US craft beer. Those original IPAs from England did have a higher ABV and more hops than the bitters and ales they were based on. And it was supposed to give them better shelf life. But we’re talking a beer with 5% abv and like 15 IBUs instead of 3.5% and 5 IBUs. It was a pretty slight increase on both. Style guidelines peg American IPAs as at least 6.3% abv and a minimum of 50 IBUs. You’re well into the territory where peak flavor and even shelf life are shortened.
Typical, less hoppy, unpasteurized beer is usually held to have a 1 year shelf life. And while its better fresh, it doesn’t lose too much over time.
American IPAs and hoppier American beers are considered to have a six month shelf life. There’s significant flavor degradation at that point, and they may be out and out spoiled. The hazy new style IPAs are generally considered to be spoiled at 6 months. And their flavor is pretty well degraded by 3. And a lot of people claim the flavor is negatively impacted after just a few weeks. They’re also unfiltered, so there’s live yeast in there, weird can happen.
Plus craft beer is usually unpasteurized. Which is really bad in a hot, humid, shipping container headed across the Atlantic.
In the 80s, Labatt in Quebec made a local Guinness in bottles. I liked it, but in no way was it real Guinness. At the time real Guinness was only available in draft and at very few locations in Montreal.
Yeah I’d assume that was foreign stout (which seems to have gone by a couple names over the years). Which are based on, and most similar to what’s now called “Guinness Extra Stout”. Which is itself a version of the original old school draft Guinness. They reformulated the flag ship Guinness in the 70s (?) as “Guinness Draft”. Lower ABV, less bitter espresso malts. The earlier formulation was apparently in turn based on an Export version of the locally drank Stout. Intended for shipment abroad to Europe, parts of the British Empire, and Russia. Where Irish stouts were apparently very popular at the time. Giving us the term “Russian Imperial Stout”, which wasn’t really a category at the time. And the use of “Imperial” to denote stronger versions of existing styles. That version of Guinness was apparently popular enough at home that it displaced the earlier lower ABV stouts then common in Ireland. Versions of that recreated from brewers notes and company records have been popping up as limited release bottlings from Guinness the last couple of years. Including as the 90th Anniversary Stout, which was down right awesome.
Its super fun and confusing. But it weirdly seems to have come full circle.
Oddly enough there’s multiple versions of Draft, Export/Extra Stout and Foreign Stout depending on the market and where its made.
Near as I can tell:
Draft is the only keg product. Lower ABV in Ireland than the rest of the world and I think its all brewed in Ireland.
Export Stout/Extra Stout seem to be the same thing currently. With Export being the term in Ireland, Extra Stout most other places. The pre-70’s version of “Draft”. Seems to have a couple different ABVs depending on exact market. I’m entirely unsure whether this is brewed places other than Ireland. But the stuff in the US seems to come from Ireland.
Foriegn Stout: The internationally brewed, stronger version of Extra Stout. Apparently mostly brewed from concentrated wort produced in Ireland. Seems to have also been called “Foriegn Extra Stout” and maybe even “Export Stout” at various times in various markets.
Just by the way—I was curious where in NY it might be (being from upstate New York myself), so I followed your link…and they say it’s in Spencer, Massachusetts…which of course is relatively very near NY compared to most of the world, but, you know, not NY, so I just thought I’d mention it because I know you like knowing info
The monks of St. Joseph Abbey, brewing Spencer Beer! It’s pretty easy to find around Massachusetts, and while a little pricey, is really quite good and worth trying. Their Quad Reserve Ale and Holiday Ale are especially nice.
You know what that’s right. I’ve always just been told it was in NY, never looked into it. Spencer is newish, 2013. And I remember there being 11 before 2013. Maybe they moved? Maybe I just confused them perpetually with Ommegang cause the whole Belgian thing?
They seem to love confusing things. They seem to have swapped extra, foreign, and export around different markets. Different products. And have combined them every which way.
Its kind of hilarious. And sort of destroys any concept of “Real Guiness”. There never seems to have been a single version. And none of them seem to have persisted as the main one for more than a couple decades with out tweaks.
The main way of differentiating the things seems to be ABV and where they were brewed. Brewed outside Ireland it most seems to be the Foreign Stout recipe, with the highest ABV. Currently. But there doesn’t really seem to be any clear way of telling for past versions. And Guinness seems to be opening more satellite breweries these days.
ETA: Oh wait. There is another Draft Product. Extra Cold. Which is apparently Draft that’s be formulated to pour properly through some sort of gimmicky draft product called a super chiller, so it can be served at a lower temp than the other Guinness tap on the same system. Which is very weird. And apparently its only in Ireland.
One of the most interesting things I’ve found dabbling in home brewing and delving into this stuff more deeply in general is that I believe that color definitely “colors” our perception of what the beer tastes like. I think this was what was going on with the Black IPA craze a while back. It only takes a minuscule amount of the appropriate malts to completely blacken the color, at levels that might be perceptible but don’t define the beer.
Absolutely. When I was still bartending. Many, many, many customers would refuse to drink darker beers. Claiming they were either “too heavy” or “too strong”. The too heavy comes from stouts and porters, which are obviously pretty malty. But I’ve never been able to figure out why people assumed darker beers had more ABV and would get them too drunk too fast. Meanwhile there is absolutely nothing heavy about Schwartzbier. And its fun to say.
Thanks for an excellent explanation. Even though I find modern American hop bombs to be enjoyable (particularly with meals), more often I prefer something like a Kölsch or a more traditional ale or lager - or things like lambics and the like. When I manage to get up to Wisconsin, New Glarus Serendipity (an apple/cherry/cranberry sour ale) is at the very top of my list (though that’s almost wine ;))
Guinness, on the other hand, is something I’ve not managed to warm up to. Maybe if I had a chance to drink one of the real Irish Guinnesses I’d like it better. There are certain types of bitter flavors that I like*, and others that I don’t - and American Guinness falls into the latter category.
* When I mix one of my Manhattan variants**, I usually put in at least two types of bitters (Peychaud’s and Fee Bros. Aromatic). Wait, make that three, since Amaro Ramazzotti also goes into the mix. By the time I’m finished, it’s well beyond a traditional Manhattan.
** I usually use a martini glass for them, as well…
The malt based bitterness in the Guinness comes from Black patent malts. The darkest roasted malt, almost scorched. And espresso malts, which appropriately taste like espresso. It has been quite a while since I tasted Guinness in Ireland, but if memory serves its just a bit smoother, and there’s less of that bitterness so probably.
Personally I hate them. The American IPA style is completely, totally, unbalanced. And I absolutely hate the skunky, piney west coast hops that defined craft beer for so long. I’m really just not much of a hop person, with a few exceptions.
The more recent stuff is interesting though. The general idea of an IPA is shifting. ABVs are headed downward. Bitterness is dropping, dry hopping is all the rage. And the style of hops now in fashion are more towards the grassy, herbal, and especially citrusy and fruity. Which is more to my liking.
The hazy North East/New England style IPAs are genuinely interesting. Still not to my liking for the most part. But there’s something like a legitimate, consistent style of beer emerging there. Every little hop bitterness, but lots of hop aroma, and non bitter flavors. Sensible ABVs. Grain bills intended to increase drinkability despite higher ABVs. As much as they’re sort of big collections of brewing flaws. And often time obnoxiously over the top branding wise. There’s something going on there besides “throw hops and malt at it”. For all its weird there’s a lot of really balanced beer sitting in that category. I think in 20-25 years something delightful will have grown out of it.
I think it’s the scorched flavor that I find off-putting, and it can give me headaches. I remember getting a splitting headache after a single bottle of Dogfish Head.
Indeed, those are the hopped-up beers I prefer as well.
I’m with you there, especially as many of the brands seemed to be pushing the “it tastes like marijuana!” angle so hard. I don’t mind a bit of pine flavor (I like a nice piney gin & tonic now and then) but don’t want my beer to taste painfully resinous all the time. I avoided the DIPAs that were popping up on the east coast until recently when I found that a lot of them were going for more of a citrus, juicy, tropical flavor, lower ABVs, and – shockingly – actually pleasant to drink. Now that hazy IPAs are recognized as an official style as of this year, it’ll be interesting to see how they develop.
That seems to have become all the rage again. Its disgusting. The beers smell like weed. And often taste like bong water.
The hazy IPAs are very recent it seems. And most of them, especially the supposed good ones. Do seem to be limited to the North East with a big cluster in New England where the style started out. Hence the usual names. Though they’re spreading like crabs. The older style has sort of been relabeled “West Coast IPA” as the West Coast was the origin point for the general thing.
I don’t like the Hazy guys on the whole. Still not really my thing. But I’ve been tasting and drinking them a lot for work. The whole Juicy Hazy Crushable Bro 4pk can collectors market that’s taken over is so defining for the beer market right now I have to know what’s going on. There’s 1 I’ve found so far that had me saying “shit I want another of those”. And I’m about to consume 2 of these. The first release of that one wasn’t half bad, and this round was supposedly a finalized, refined version of the recipe.
But yeah its research. I wouldn’t really be drinking this if I didn’t need to know what I was selling and how it compares to the competition. I can’t push a beer as good if I don’t know what defines a good example of its style. Mostly just 2oz samples of whatever my better rotater bars tell me is best on the list today. Develop the palate.
Believe me, hazy IPAs have hit SoCal. I’m just like, you’ve gotta be kidding me. We work to try to make our beers as clear as possible, and now you’re just going to up and say that the thing that was a flaw yesterday is now something you’re marketing as a selling point?
Oh their everywhere. Just there’s fuck loads of them here.
Actually one of the hotter brands out here is from Nevada, done by a brewer who was original a hot shot of the West Coast style. That’s how big that shits gotten. Successful, famous brewers are leaving successful famous breweries just get into the tiny brewery makes cans of cloudy beer game.
I think the “haze” is going to burn those guys. A lot of the cloudyness is hop oils. Its responsible for the short shelf life. It can separate so you have to shake the can for it to taste right. And when you’re already throwing enough hops into things that there’s more than the liquid can physically dissolve. You’ve kind of jumped the shark in terms of “more hops”. I’ve already been noticing the whole trend is dialing back the hops and IBU levels. More stability means you can ship more beer further without quality problems.
(of course, drink what you like!)