Consensus among who? The folks you know who lived in Japan or are Japanese? Even if part of it driven by male fantasies or whatever, your comment ignores that japanese women are real live human beings who can make their own choices about how they dress and act. My problem is the blanket statement, not that some women might possibly be influenced by men’s views of what they find attractive in women.
I’d suspect that quick googling would also turn up the opposite of the “women only do shit for attention because men” nonsense. I’m sure that an academic study of kawaii culture would also highlight the complexity of crafting a culture that rests on more than “doing it for the attention because men”.
Women dont’ just exist for the pleasure of men - we exist outside of that as well.
I guess I just have a problem with policing women’s language, how we talk, dress, exist in this world. It would just be nice to be treated with basic dignity and not told what I’m doing to annoy people by dressing, talking, and being as I like. it’s exhausting and I and lots of women are really sick of it. If me asking you to not completely dismiss women and their actions out of hand is “making you conform” to some unrealistic standard, than I can’t help you, because I don’t plan on NOT pointing out stupid sexist shit when I see it. Because I want to live in a better world and I want my kid to live in a better world. What we’d like is for men to understand that, recognize that we have a right to live in a world that treats us all with respect and maybe help us to make that happen instead of throwing sarcasm in our faces, and bitching about how women’s voices sound.
And I am not attempting to stop Japanese women from acting juvenile. But I still found it cringy. I just did. It has pedophilia overones to it.
I find Hoodies a dumb fashion statement. That might offend hoodie fans out there, but sorry. They look dumb.
I am allowed to have a critical opinion on cultural, fashion affectations. You don’t have to agree. You don’t have to do anything about it.
My problem is you thinking I was making a blanket statement. I was generalizing. No shit Japanese women have free will (generally speaking). I didn’t see the need to point out the obvious. You can find anything to support anything on the Internet. God bless all Japanese people, and you as well.
Because people (meaning some men) feel like they have to condescend and police women, and make us feel like shit for not being exactly as they please. They don’t like our voices, our clothes, our music choices, our religion or lack thereof, our choice of jobs, our lack of options, the way we walk, the fact that we’re mothers, or not, the fact that we work, or not, the hem length of our skirt, whether or not we identify as geeks, our race, our level of anger, etc and feel that they have to tell us about how we’re not good enough because we’re not pleasing to them, because they feel our entire existence shouldn’t offend them. Because that’s how much they value us as human beings.
Here is the thing - when we talk about systemic violence against women and people start talking about how men are also abused, it’s really derailing. when I say what women are treated badly, it doesn’t mean that men are not also treated badly or that it’s not a problem, it’s that women are treated badly because of system problems in our society, problems that include cultural critiques on women’s modes of dress, talk, etc (which is how this conversation came up in the first place, because I responded to some sweeping remarks about Japanese women and kawaii culture).
I’m not sure it matters at this point… the same points keep coming up in any thread where the opportunity to point out women’s shortcomings pop up. I’m beginning to feel like a broken record.
Get over yourself. I said silly things not silly girls. And BTW, I support silly in all it’s forms. Whimsy and silly are traits I regard quite highly. But god forbid someone make a comment that Mindysan might be able to twist in to an attack on women or a sexist position.
Yes, sorry I don’t like it when women are looked down upon. You do realize that all too often that women’s interests are considered “silly”, right? I mean, sports are BIG IMPORTANT THINGS, while clothes and cute things are silly.
Even if you didn’t mean it to be sexist, I don’t have to contort too much to understand your statement as sexist. The point is not your intent, which might have been perfectly harmless, it’s how women’s lives and interests are consistently marginalized.
Because you think silly things are lesser or are to be marginalized doesn’t mean I have to. If you want to perpetuate the misogynistic stereotype the silly is somehow a bad thing or that cute is somehow not to be valued then you go right ahead and throw fuel on that fire. Me, I support any person who chooses to let their freak flag fly now matter what’s sewn on it.
Personally I find such intolerance towards others to be abhorrent. That vitriol is poisonous to free exchange as it often include attacks on those who do not meet some very narrow and twisted standards for discourse. Such a position is toxic to an open and free discussion.
I understand how sexism works and I resent your uninformed and prejudiced assertion that I do not. Also, please explain how I have behaved as if I’ve pre-judged anyone at all here?
Because you display a belief in the superiority of your own opinions and prejudiced intolerance towards the opinions of others - which I think is the actual definition of bigotry. Or to put it another way, your discourse is a perfect example of bigotry.
No, pointing out that it happens is not. Taking steps to end it is not. Attacking people because you prejudged them based on their sex or simply because they think differently from you most definitely is.
So far in this discussion you have prejudged men as not recognizing the rights of women, complaining about how womens voices sound, and used the generalization that men think sports are big import things. In my personal opinion, it is not OK to use bigotry and prejudice to fight bigotry and prejudice. I feel it is toxic.
Try to keep in mind that as Wittgenstein correctly observed, meaning is use. With that in mind, one can approach the discourse of others with a more open mind that allows for the use of words in a way that may not fit the generally accepted one. This view helps keep us from becoming angered by misunderstanding as it presumes such might exist.
