I wouldn’t phrase it quite that way 
but you’re quite right: the Sacoolas case is a major barrier to cooperation with the US on pretty much anything.
Apparently if you suspect this is the case it’s best to avoid the peripherique.
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Best way to get “that bitch” to UK is probably to offer to trade Julian Assange. That seems cynical enough to fit Trump and Boris.
Now that I’m on the other side of the equation:
You can have Prince Andrew.
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It is wise, from the perspective of self-preservation to refuse to cooperate with the police. What it isn’t is noble, honourable or good. When you have committed a crime under a just law, the honourable thing to do is to admit you did it and face the consequences. So we can:
Suggest that laws that prevent grown men from having sex with teenagers coerced into sex slavery are unjust(Let’s not)Believe Prince Andrew is innocent(No, we can’t really do that)- Think Prince Andrew is an ignoble coward who strikes one more nail in the coffin of the idea that the monarchy are in some way worthy of our respect
How I ought to deal with the police doesn’t really weigh into whether Prince Andrew is a piece of shit. And I like the queen, but screw the queen. Wanting to protect your kid at all costs is something I can understand, but when you 60-year-old kid is a child rapist, turn them the fuck in.
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I’m not positing that he’s anything but a garbage pile who deserves bad things to happen to him. What I’m criticizing is the mindset that law enforcement has spent a lot of time and energy cultivating in our country that if someone had nothing to hide, they’d cooperate with an investigation and do what the police are asking of them, even if they’re not legally required to do so. There’s a non-trivial number of innocent people sitting in jail right now because of this expectation to “cooperate” because they didn’t feel like they had anything to hide, and then fucked themselves by saying something stupid. It happens more to poor people of course, but if it can happen to someone as smart and rich as Martha Stewart, it can happen to anyone.
Just look at this thread–there are intelligent people equating not responding to requests for an interview with being on the run to avoid arrest. That’s exactly what law enforcement wants us to think, and it serves no one but law enforcement.
I think the principle is more important than any one person, not unlike why I thought OJ’s acquittal was appropriate even though he was guilty as hell. Even though we all know he was guilty, the principle of not allowing police to frame a defendant, even when he’s guilty, is more important than a murderer going free.
Again, there is little to no doubt that Andrew is a piece of shit as is the whole of the royal family. That is not in question for me or any other reasonable person.
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If you were british, the UK government would have little to no interest in keeping you from questioning or prosecution if you aren’t Prince Andrew. This is a high profile case that includes plenty of people abroad. I’d guess they’d cooperate otherwise.
I don’t know if you are giving those intelligent people enough credit, thought, for using their intelligence. Like you are taking an action, “Refusing to cooperate with police” and making that the center piece, like we’d interpret that action the same in all circumstances. Imagine there was a thread about an eight-time knife murderer being caught on video sharpening a knife. We are all like, “wow, that’s fucked up” and someone comes in to say, “I sharpen knives all the time, there’s nothing wrong with it!”
Prince Andrew is hiding from the cops to escape justice. And they can do so because of their extreme privilege and because of the privilege of people surrounding them in this case. If these were “ordinary” people who had been involved in sex trafficking of minors then hiding in the UK to avoid US law enforcement wouldn’t work that great (like how Snowden fled to Russia, not to Canada).
I don’t think the people you are arguing with here have shown an excessive deference to law enforcement. I think they are showing a non-excessive distaste for rapist princes.
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Again, you may be aware of facts that I’m not aware of, but what is the UK government doing at present to prevent US law enforcement from questioning Andrew or hindering prosecution? I’m not aware of any request for extradition that has been denied or ignored, so I’m not sure what acts you’re referring to.
Of course he is. He’s a piece of shit. But he also shouldn’t talk to police unless & until he’s legally required to, because no one should, guilty or innocent. Law enforcement should gather the evidence, present it to a grand jury, get an indictment, and then extradite him.
I don’t think it’s deference to law enforcement, either, but I do think it is an example of situational ethics that tends to let law enforcement off the hook when it comes to people we all know are guilty (even though we all know there are plenty of examples of the public and the cops being sure of someone’s guilt and being dead wrong about it.
If the cops have evidence that he committed a crime (and they should, if they are worth a shit as investigators), then they should charge him.
I afraid I don’t follow this, but if you’re arguing that I’m saying there’s nothing wrong with not cooperating with police until are legally required, I absolutely agree with that.
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It’s almost like real life is messy and no single answer works for any given situation… But that can’t be right? /s
The fact that he’s not been questioned speaks volumes. And I doubt they’re going to issue an extradition request for a member of the royal family. Again, they do not live by the same rules that us peasants do.
What I’m saying is that we all know you shouldn’t cooperate with the cops, we have not been brainwashed. Our opinions about Prince Andrew, their motives, and what not cooperating says about them take into account the entirety of our knowledge about Prince Andrew. An action that is neutral (or even good) in most situations can be terrible in another given all the facts.
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Of course they don’t, they’re literally royalty, and they are all garbage people. But this isn’t really an example of that preferential treatment, because US law enforcement has made no effort I’m aware of to legally compel him to appear in the US beyond a request for a voluntary interview. There is no arrest warrant, there is no extradition request, there is no Red Notice through Interpol. They are asking for voluntary cooperation, which by definition no one is required to give.
Our host publication seems to disagree:
I have to disagree when it comes to voluntarily cooperating with a police investigation. You or I should not do so. Neither should a rich & famous person. Guilty or innocent. Our law enforcement in this country is far too reliant on “confessions” being the focal point of evidence in criminal cases, and in my opinion this situational mindset that recognizes we shouldn’t cooperate with cops but someone not cooperating voluntarily is “terrible” if he’s unlikable and/or the crime is heinous gives more credence to the primacy of confessions.
I recognize I’m not convincing you and/or Mindy on this one of my point of view, and I don’t want to belabor the point to diminishing returns. So I’m happy to let both of you have the last word on this.
Thanks for the interesting conversation & take care!
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None of those things are happening because he’s a royal. They will not happen. He will never give any testimony or be charged with a crime. Never.
It appears we’ve circled back around to the beginning, so I’m done banging my head against a wall.
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I still think you’re baking a bad assumption into “should” there. A person shouldn’t cooperate with the police if their intention is to avoid being convicted of a crime. If you intend to be convicted of a crime and face punishment for it, then obviously you should go directly to the police and cooperate. If Andrew doesn’t intend to be convicted of a crime then fuck him.
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Maybe it’s just because I am a lawyer, but I can believe all of the following things simultaneously:
- Prince Andrew is probably a child-rapist.
- Prince Andrew is certainly a POS.
- The royal family protects itself in ways both legal for everyone and legal for no one else.
AND
A. Prince Andrew should not speak to the FBI.
B. Never disagree with Ken White/Popehat when it comes to dealing with law enforcement.
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I wonder if being a lawyer contributes to thinking of what legal advice you would give a client rather than thinking about what a person should do. If one day you wake up and find out that a long time friend of yours, whose house you’ve stayed at many times at length, has been trafficking children for sex, and the police would like to ask you questions about it, should you:
- Refuse to cooperate with the police
- Cooperate with the police in any way you can
So let’s say I believe Ken White. If my primary goal is that I don’t get arrested/convicted in connection with the sex trafficking, then then answer is (1). If my primary goal is that my former friend and their associates be brought to justice and that any sex slaves be freed, and I’m willing to bravely increase my own risk of going to prison in order to reach that goal, then the answer is (2).
You are, of course, not in the habit of telling clients to take grave legal risks in order to stand on principle. I am 100% in the habit of thinking that Prince Andrew should take grave legal risks to make amends for their participation in child sex trafficking which in the very best, charitable-to-the-point-of-being incredible interpretation was happening right under the princes’ nose in a house they were sleeping in while they obliviously walked past a hundred warning signs.
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I can’t tell you in that situation what I would do if I had not been a lawyer for the last 20 years, that’s too counter-factual.
I CAN tell you in the hypothetical case you mentioned that if I certainly would lawyer up myself (with a real criminal defense lawyer, and since I have referred clients to Ken it would probably be Ken assuming here in CA). And then I would follow his advice - which would be to not talk to the cops.
Because if you are in fact a friend of a person like that - even if you are totally innocent and had no knowledge - you have to weigh up the following (1) the chance that a DA or police officer just wants to hear what you have to say (even totally, completely, factually innocent information) versus (2) the idea that they want to charge more people and will use the full panoply of their powers to get everyone that can possibly tar with any kind of related crime (and especially in high profile cases). (I am ignoring for the purpose of this response the last paragraph of your response that assumes Prince Andrew participated in a child sex trafficking ring - something I might also believe, but actually doesn’t move the needle on whether he should talk to the cops.)
It’s easy for me to believe police and related officials abuse their power and try to expand their remit in a variety of situations. Including, if given the chance, in this one. And I have a really easy time believing that the advice of real experts is best - people like Ken White.
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I think (2) and I think Prince Andrew should cooperate with the FBI. They should cooperate with the FBI and go to prison.
We don’t expect people to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, or to own up to their part in evil that has been done because we are accustomed to thinking of people as self interested and cowardly. And maybe we forgive them for that. I don’t forgive Prince Andrew for that.
If someone participated in sex trafficking of children, then in addition to committing that crime, they are doing wrong every moment that they are not going to the police to turn themselves in and assist in stopping the ongoing harm. It’s not just the case that Andrew should be cooperating with the police now, it’s the case that Andrew should have turned themselves into the police years ago.
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If you’re referring to Diana, the crash wasn’t on the peripherique, but pretty much in the centre of Paris. I do however think it is a good general rule to avoid the periperique.
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