I totally agree with you. But as democrats where do we draw the line? Hard to decide. But for most nominating an accused rapist is pretty clearly past the line.
I know we don’t want to hear that - its just more bad news in a primary season that’s not gone well. We lined up behind this one guy, and he broke our trust by having a skeleton in his closet. It sucks. But going forward with him is only going to make things worse.
“If Biden is innocent then why isn’t he using the legal system to threaten and silence women?” is a pretty original take.
This is probably the best summary of the situation, which is: it’s a live story, needs to be independently vetted by other media groups (who are actively trying to), and having a strong opinion on the credibility or conspiracy is foolish. The story has been broken by outlets that have a history of rushing on developing stories for good or bad, so saying more time is needed is not rejecting women.
In the meantime, dismissing her is dumb and Biden is a known creep and casual racist.
Because he knows, and we know, that unless he can prove he is innocent of this accusation, he’s going to be out as a candidate. Oh wait? He can just stonewall and ignore it. Sure - lets do that.
Its a perfectly justified way to clear his name. And in fact it would do just the opposite of silencing her, it would give her the chance to tell her story under oath. If that is such a deal killer, then he has little risk - if she is lying she will refuse, he will win with little fanfare.
Or maybe he’s not doing it because he does not want to lie under oath.
Nobody is giving her that chance to give that story under oath.
he is saying she can create that chance by suing Biden.
Its true, but ignores how devastating that would be to her life no matter the outcome - and this is why it is a mostly hollow claim coming from a position of privilege. Calling for oaths to validate claims as proof is just another form of not listening to women.
If he is innocent but has no way to prove a negative then he also has nothing to gain by giving the accusation more public attention.
You literally just said that Biden should drag her into court.
I don’t know whether this accusation is true or not. But it is clear that you have decided to interpret anything that Biden does or does not do as evidence of his guilt.
I’m not arguing for him suing for defamation. I am arguing that validation by oath goes both ways - that it can’t be the test of truth for Reade, and not for Biden. They both have many good reasons for not going down that road.
But lets ponder what Biden stands to lose by not proving his innocence. We now have a Democratic party NOT listening to women. We have a mainstream media ignoring women claims against Biden, when they would never do that for Kavanaugh, or Trump, or Sanders for that matter. We have enabled Trump to deny any sexual allegation against him in the election and moving forward. We’ve set back the entire movement to listen to women over powerful white men. The DNC is really blowing our wad on this - a stupid move when we have other good candidates. And even candidates that don’t have to answer to big money donors.
Its a bad trade-off.
I’ve done no such thing. I am saying the situation is bad and seriously threatens his candidacy. And no matter if he is guilty or innocent he ought to drop out so we have the best chance of beating trump. Biden is far from our best chance at this point.
You again seem to be starting from the premise that an innocent man would have proof of his innocence.
I wonder exactly what kind of evidence you would accept as “proof” of Biden’s innocence since you yourself described it as an “unknowable.”
I would say, quite cynically, that Biden already has what he wants in his grasp - the nomination. Sure, he also wants to be president. But he’d settle for the nomination. From his perspective, he doesn’t gain anything by giving this issue more oxygen.
Whereas, for Reade, it’s very nearly existential.
And you, like republicans before you, are starting from the premise that a truthful accuser would have proof of his guilt. Again, you fall back on a premise that goes both ways, but only want to recognize how it goes against Reade and for Biden.
Lots.
“I wasn’t it Washington that day - I was in Delaware meeting with the Governor, and he remembers his meeting and its on his schedule on the public record.”
“At the time she says this happened I was in a committee meeting in Senator Smith’s office, where the meeting minutes showing my attendance are in the public record.”
Look - Biden was a heavily scheduled person in those days, and where he was at a given time is a very public thing. For an accuser to come up with a hole in his schedule to claim there was an encounter would be a very difficult thing to fabricate. And then to anticipate it by 20 yrs by telling people close to you about it, wow, that takes some masterful planning.
Nobody has “to give her a chance”. She can do it by herself and sue Biden. Its not like there aren’t people lining out the door to represent her in such a lawsuit.
Nonsense. I have not claimed her story was disproven. I am saying it is an impossible standard to demand proof that Biden didn’t finger someone against her will in 1993.
If his account is to be believed those things are not true. You are not giving examples of evidence you would accept as for proof of his story, you were asking for him to have a provable alibi.
Yes - because we have a weak willed Democratic party, willing to contradict its own hard fought moral positions, allowing a grossly immoral Trump to cast doubt on the integrity of the Democrats and enabling Trump to defeat them.
The Democrats done it before, and obviously are capable of doing it again.
Same thing.
If not so, distinguish for me: “alibi” from “evidence”.
I am not demanding proof – I am in fact demanding he drop out.
Meanwhile you appear to be demanding she have proof that Biden did do this. An equally impossible standard.
I think I’ve pointed out at least three times where a different standard of expectation is being applied to Reade:
These are all positions of privilege, and precisely what this recent movement has been about. All these things go both ways. The only just, fair, and moral outcome is Biden dropping out because this can not be resolved clearly without interfering negatively with his campaign.
If one of my former students accused me of sexually assaulting them during office hours years ago then I probably would not have an alibi, because I really would have been in the place I was accused of being at the time of the alleged assault.
To follow your reasoning, the “evidence” would support my guilt unless I changed my story to “actually I wasn’t in my office that day.”
That is true, but a part of that weakness is that they are slow to act. It took a long time for the party to act when evidence came out about misbehavior by Al Franken, but it got there eventually.
If you did not have an alibi as to where you were, when you were not at your office hours, then you would have no evidence that your alibi was true.
Its the same thing. Whatever hair you are splitting here makes no difference. If Biden were somewhere else, and had a witness or record of such then that is solid evidence that he is telling the truth and she is not. Biden has produced no such evidence. Reade however has told others of her experience shortly after it happened. Those people validate her story, while not evidence until they give testimony, this is far more damning for Biden than anything he has offered to claim innocence.
I have to say its so discouraging to see how easily we slip back to disbelieving the accuser and disparaging them. When we fought against Kavanaugh it felt right, because it was right. But now the Democrats reveal themselves to be only pursuing political expediency, and not really believing in the moral cause they took up. And as vile as the Republican party is, they will be in the “right” to attack the Democrats on this. Democrats have handed the Republicans the knife to stab them with.
I’m done arguing this here. If you can’t see the crystal clear morality of this, then yes, that is why the Democrats are so fucked up.
Who are you accusing of that? Because that’s not what others are doing here. Just because people are not lining up behind your “Biden should drop out” idea, doesn’t mean they believe him over Reade.
I’m inclined to believe her, for all the reasons stated above. But there is clearly more to be learned in order to find the right path forward. Even the idiotic Project Veritas false claims against Sanders required follow-through rather than just jumping to action one way or the other.
