Kickstarting Atheist Baby Shoes

Except that I said as much in my post.

Religions have a long history of fostering community, education, charity, and other good works. That’s not to say that religion always results in these things, or that religion is necessary to result in these things, but they’re certainly markedly prevalent among religious populations.

Whether or not you find a particular religion’s arguments about theology or metaphysics convincing, the fact of the matter is that the existance of organized religions results in massive social structures with incredible potentials for positive impact on the world. You don’t have to like a religion to understand that it can be a supremely useful resource.

Logic and Rationality are laudible qualities, but they are not the be-all and end-all of the human condition - nor should they be. While they are potent tools for helping us to manage ourselves and our world, they have limits and there are some things they simply cannot do.

We humans are not purely logical creatures. We are emotional creatures. Even the most logical among us are still regularly swayed by our feelings and our beliefs. Even the most rational of us acts irrationally, most of the time with no ill effect, and some of the time even to our benefits.

Is a logical, rational system - like governmental aide and social welfare and all that - a good thing to have and to maintain? Sure it is! Absolutely, 100%!

Does it always work? Well… no, it turns out it doesn’t. Why not? That’s a difficult question to answer, but part of the problem is that you can’t build a failproof system if it doesn’t take into account human emotion and irrationality.

There are no shortage of examples of otherwise logical, rational people who - for one reason or another - fail to act utterly rationally in all circumstances, or even just most circumstances. Economics is full of theories that sound good on paper, but that fall apart once they encounter the human element, because they make the mistake of basing all their assumptions on the idea that people are going to act as logically as possible, from a position of enlightened self interest. People are rarely enlightened, and surprisingly often not self interested.

So are secular, rational social structures good? Yes, of course they are. But are they perfect? No, not remotely. There are gaps in places, and despite the best intentions of the most logical people and societal systems, people still fall into the cracks and the system breaks down a little.

Hence why striving to make positive use of the already extant massive potential of religious communities makes sense. We already have these social structures, why not put them to use reinforcing our secular structures? Redundancy is good, right?

“But Religions are bad and cause problems! They’re susceptible to corruption and stupidity and oppression and cults of personality and bullheadedness and petty squabbling and all sort of terrible abuses of power and trust and all sorts of stuff!”

…yesss… but… so are all social structures, including ostensibly “rational” secular governments. The problem isn’t unique to - or even just innate to - religion. The problem is with human failings, in all their forms, in all the places they take root, and both Atheists and Theists alike fall prey to such evils.

Full disclosure, I quite like and value Logic. I consider myself a Rationalist and a Logician (although certainly an imperfect one in both cases), and I will readily champion the promotion of Logic and Rational Thought to people everywhere. But at the same time, I also believe that there is a place for Faith and for Emotion - that these are things which, when properly cultivated, are not only healthy and natural to possess, but which can also enrich life in the most profound ways.

Faith doesn’t mean a rejection of Logic, and Logic doesn’t mean a rejection of Faith. They can and do coexist, because they each provide us with different resources that enrich our lives in different ways.

Logic can help us to temper our negative emotions, and to find wisdom and fairness in rational thought. Logic helps us solve practical problems, it helps us to maintain Order and keeps us from falling prey to our destructive tendencies, and minimizes our personal flaws.

But at the same time, if taken to an extreme, logic can also harm us, by depriving us of positive emotions as well. Logic does not do very well in handling matters which are abstract instead of concrete, or subjective rather than objective.

Some things are beyond measurement, or beyond quanitification, or even just beyond expresssion. There is little of logic in a painting, or in the beauty of a flower. Rational analysis will only help you so much to understand dreams, or laughter, or wonder, or love, or joy. There are countless aspects of the human condition that can barely be properly expressed in symbols or language, much less evaluated in light of rational thought.

Can Logic and Rationality add to these more emphemeral aspects of the human experience? Certainly they can. There’s a great deal to be said for the joys of studying things, of understanding things, and of making intelligent, rational, reasonable insights into the natures of things, even emphemeral and very “human” things. But that doesn’t tell you everything about such things, and anyone who tried to go through life being only purely and utterly logical and rational would (if such a thing were even possible, which I highly doubt) they would miss out on so very much of what we as human value in our lives.

There is nothing inherently wrong with religion, and there is nothing inherently right about logic. The two are not opposites, nor even rivals. There is no reason they cannot coexist, with the best of each quality being cultivated to enrich the different parts of our human lives.

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Not when it crashes, they aren’t.

I don’t see how these booties are explicitly atheist.

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Good point. (Song cue: “I Believe In You”, from How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying.)

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There’s a quote I always liked, which goes something like this:
“Religion is like a penis. It’s fine to have it, and it’s fine to be proud of it. Just don’t whip it out in public and start waving it around, and don’t try to shove it down my throat.”

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I’m really surprised by the anti-Atheist sentiments on BoingBoing. I don’t see anything wrong with a “Jesus Loves Me” onesie and I don’t see anything wrong with Atheist booties

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There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with either, they’re just tacky as hell.

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As far as I’m concerned, atheists are fine as long as they’re not pretentious stinkers who look down on people who are religious. But I don’t think these booties are very tasteful.

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I thought the video was cute. Also, if you didn’t know that the booties were made by Atheists, you’d never know it from the shoes. “I believe in Mommy” doesn’t say anything about religion when the context is removed. My only problem with this campaign is that shoes sizes are fleeting on young children and kickstarter ship times are anything but reliable.

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Not really. You’ve heard the phrase “we are our parent’s children”? That’s all I mean. We wear our parents issues, likes and dislikes on us like a pair of [a]theist booties until we grow up and make our own choices. So if you see a baby with messaging on it, it’s just a literal representation of what e do to our kids in a thousand other ways. It’s what they’re good for because they’re so good at it.

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Today we call people who espouse feminist beliefs “normal people.” Do you believe that women should get to vote? Have a right to a job? Be elected to leadership positions? Congratulations, you’re a feminist. And you have the women who were loud to thank for make those beliefs mainstream.

And you also feel you are able to state that you are an atheist without fear of recrimination, without fear of losing your job? Congratulations, you have those who normalized atheist beliefs by speaking out and admitting to them to thank for that.

(I notice you didn’t put someone who advocates for civil rights on your list. Was it just as annoying when people argued for black people to have rights as it was for you when people argued about women’s rights, or is that one different?)

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They can have my bacon when they pry it from my cold, dead hands, though.

Is that from a TV show? I don’t have a TV so I wouldn’t know.

I prefer the team “Humanist”, myself. “Proportionist” isn’t bad either, nor is “Equalist”, although it might cause some confusion among Korra fans… :wink:

I’m mostly emotional and irrational (in the sense you describe), like all people. So what do I need religion for? Can I not enjoy Bach and Beethoven without fairy tales full of lies and deception?

Where exactly do usually oppressive cultural systems based on ignorance and lies come into this? Has honesty no value to you?

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Just don’t engage. You’re trying to employ rational argument to their emotional topic.

Oh, the sweet sweet irony…

You know, so long as they aren’t too evangelical about it people rarely object to religious people advertizing their affiliation. That includes how they deck out their children - I know people here have criticized the practice, but in practice they rarely do except in such comparisons.

Meanwhile so much as suggest someone might publically want to identify as atheist - from making shoes that don’t say much to a single word billboard noting you exist - and you are immediately accused of picking fights, or being offensive, or militant, or so on. Why else wouldn’t you shut up about what you believe?

So yes, double standards have a tendency to make people emotional, and justly so. I know atheists don’t really have it bad compared to women, or ethnic minorities, or GLBT people, and on-line especially there are a few who have decided to be really obnoxious and talk with full privilege against everyone else. But come on. Is it really so hard to understand why a non-religious minority might be invested in this stuff, and try to be fair about it?

That could be debated - it’s true for some people, but there are lots of others for whom faith means where they stop questioning something and insist it as a given. But why is it the point? An atheist is someone who’s looked at religious beliefs and found they don’t seem true. So sure, religions can be put to good use when they happen to focus on beliefs that turn out to help people instead of ones that turn out to hurt them, but why would you expect anyone to support structures that are built on spreading ideas they don’t hold? It’s not like anyone expects Hindus to support mosques as institutions of social change.

And what does the fact that people aren’t purely logical have to do with anything? Atheists think theist religions don’t provide a realistic description of our world. That doesn’t make them Vulcans; they are perfectly capable of emotion and wonder, just like everyone else. So why would you bring those up as if they represented some deficiency in the non-religious?

Edit: by the way, supposing I had written posts just like the ones you two made, but with the position reversed? Giving a long explanation of how any reasonable theist should be able to recognize that religion has quite a few bad qualities associated with it, and one should try hard to excise the good qualities from the rest of it…and that while I value emotion, I recognize the imporance of logic, and laughing that religious people are all too invested in this to discuss the matter in a reasonable way?

Well, I’m pretty sure that’s the stuff that gets called militant atheism. Which, you know, is comparable to groups that campaign against gay marriage and picket abortion clinics. So…yeah.

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Do you not realize that “usually oppresive cultural system” refers to pretty much all historical cultural systems, ranging from religious structures to entirely secular governments?

Religion does not equal “ignorance and lies” any more than “secular governance” does. Sure, there are major religions with some pretty severe problems - but those are individual structures, not “Religion” as a whole. The same is true of secular governance - individual government structures certainly suffer from their own severe problems - that doesn’t mean the entire concept of secular governance is consequently worthless.

If you have some disagreement with the particular behaviors of individual established Religious Organizations, that’s one thing. If you hate, say, The Catholic Church specifically, hey, that’s your right, and to be honest they’re not saints by any stretch of the imagination. But that isn’t to say that Relgion itself is inherently more wrong or flawed for being able to be corrupted than secular government is.

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So yes, you do not value honesty, thanks.

And I agree that “secular governance” can be flawed. Especially, if it becomes religious, i.e. when people declare things to be irrefutably bad or good.
Healthcare is eeevil! (Some) drugs are eeeevil! Communism is gooood!

But why do you keep on trying to equate religion to other things?
First, “Religion is just as good as logic” and now “religion is just as bad/good as secular government”. I just asked, what I need religion for. Also, why call it secular governance? Why not simply governance, as opposed to governance + myths.

Religion does not equal “ignorance and lies” any more than “secular governance” does.

and

But that isn’t to say that Relgion itself [sic] is inherently more wrong or flawed for being able to be corrupted than secular government is.

Are religions made up? Are they based on uninformed observations? Please, name one that is not.

Do you see anything wrong with the following:

•To please Huehueteotl, the fire god, you must burn prisoners until they are almost dead, then cut their hearts out. Or else he will let a plague of fire strike the city!

•75 million years ago, Xenu placed billions of his citizens on DC-8 planes and brought them to Earth, where he then killed them all by blowing up H-bombs in volcanoes. Their souls/spirits were then brainwashed and now contribute to people’s problems. Go to expensive audits to rid yourself of their bad influence!

•God has made everything, he knows everything and he loves everything. But if you do not regularly tell the clergy your dark secrets, like the one time you took god’s name in vain, you’ll burn in hell forever!

In religions, you can’t argue with their beliefs, they are set in stone. They define it. Anywhere else, you can if you provide compelling evidence or arguments (ideally).