Moby says he has secret intelligence info on Trump

I don’t think that’ll happen, public hates this treaty. The 0.9% is BEST case from the proponents, not counting any losses from things like the environment being trashed by corporations because those regulations threaten profits.

Repeating this over and over doesn’t make it true.

Saying “it creates jobs” over and over doesn’t make it true either. I’ve yet to see you refute what was said in the articles to which I linked.


People should stop saying this very wrong “hot take.” When a candidate wins the popular vote by 3 million voters, more votes than other candidate in history besides Obama, you can’t really claim they didn’t win or excite people. Trump won by 77k votes in several key counties with the help of gerrymandering, voter suppression, FBI Director Comey, and the Russian FSB.


Do we need a lesson on how the electoral college works? You don’t need to win the popular vote. You need to win the electoral votes in the states that matter. That’s how the system works and always has.

You even allude to this.

So, the Democrats failed to win. It isn’t Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein’s fault. It is Clinton and the party establishment’s fault. If she’d convinced even 1% more of Americans to vote for her, she would have won.


That’s because you just dropped the link like you thought it was some kind of brilliant mic drop, and didn’t actually try to discuss it in your own words. You ignored my points and the link I posted too, so, yeah, I don’t think you’re really interested in an honest discussion, just pasting some cliched, naive Bernie Bro talking points and not listening in return. I don’t think there’s any point in us continuing this. Good luck.

You’re literally the only person on this site speaking up in defense of the TPP. It is up to you to convince us, not the other way around. The country, as a general group, has rejected the TPP. Our politicians, even Clinton, wound up rejecting the TPP. No one wants it.

You’re repetitive and unconvincing. You and @nickle should go discuss pensions or something.

So Cory Doctorow is a “Bernie Bro” now? Cool.


Golly, what’s the electoral college!? I never heard of that?

We have a two party system, which means making tough choices sometimes. If you didn’t vote for Clinton, then you voted for Trump, and this shit sandwich is partially on you. Life comes at you real fast…

lol, I find Cory Doctorow to be annoying and specifically filter the RSS feed to cut out his posts. If you need the site to tell you how to think, I guess asking you to form your own opinion is an impossible task to begin with, so why waste my time?

Are you busy constructing a straw man to argue with now because I certainly never said that. I’m pretty sure he wrote the article that you refused to read before calling it a “Bernie Bros” thing though.

It’s on you to convince people why we should want the TPP to pass. I’m not sure why you’d bother, unless you have too much free time, because it isn’t being passed and the United States has walked away from it. You can whinge about “trade wars! lost jobs!” all you want but it makes zero difference. It’s gone. The ship sailed. It turns out, most folks in America that bothered to find out about the TPP didn’t want it. So many of them didn’t want it that even the presidential candidate that did back it turned around and ran away from it before the election for fear of it sinking her. So, complain all you want. It’s gone.

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You’re the one who claimed “everyone on this site is against the TPP” as if that’s supposed to mean something me. 62 million people voted for Trump. That doesn’t change the fact he’s a dumpster fire of a candidate.

I posted a link and some quotes. You didn’t respond to it and just pasted the 1% cliche thing.

Whinge? Lost trade and lost jobs actually make sad. Those are real things to real people trying to feed their families. I’m not sure why you’re so cold and distant about it. I guess because whatever line of work you’re in is safe from this stuff, so you have the privilege of being aloof and uncompromising, holding out for a theoretical ideal that will never come. Were you a Bernie voter? I found this to be true with a lot of the “Bernie or Bust!” crowd who oblivious to their white privilege and how people of color didn’t have the luxury of voting third party as an accelerationist F U to society.

Trump’s protectionism is already costing jobs - business travel to the US is down 3.4% in the weeks after the Muslim travel ban. A 1% drop in travel for the year historically corresponds to 77k lost jobs and $5B lost GDP. And this is the guy you’re trusting to make deals for the 99% instead of the 1%. Good luck with that.

But, hey, the discussion was always going to end with you going “ha ha the deal’s deal!” Okay, you’re getting what you want then. Remember that in the months and years ahead.

Yes, that is exactly what I read from your comments, so I don’t think I misinterpreted you at all. You seemed to assume, by invoking unicorns and magic, that the people you were discussing this with didn’t agree. I would think we all agree with the following:

  1. Wealth inequality will exist with or without the TPP.
  2. Trade will exist with or without the TPP.
  3. Each will be affected by the TPP.

My objection was to you accusing other people of magical thinking when their position is just as reasonable as yours.

And you just kept at it, bringing up magic and invoking “Bernie Bros.” You choose to accept consensus of a certain set of economists on how trade deals affect trade, and I can see why you’d choose to do so over the word of some people on an internet forum. There are plenty of good sources of information about why TPP is bad, too, that don’t require allegiance to a particular politician. When you project magical thinking onto others, it makes you sound like an ideologue.

Whether or not Trump is going to make a bad thing worse has nothing to do with whether the TPP was a good idea. The idea that in order to be against the TPP we must support what Trump is going to do is nonsense. Trump is already president, signing the TPP wouldn’t change that. It wouldn’t stop him from trying to ban Muslims or build a wall. Some fraction of what Trump does is going to be good because of pure chance, recognizing that isn’t supporting him.


I would like to point out that this discussion of the TPP is pretty far off-topic and should probably be forked onto another thread. In fact, i’m going to go so far as to to invoke @Falcor to monitor and, if they so choose, back me up.
Thank you.


I posted it because people were questioning the debt numbers.It isn’t that
I’ve made them up, they are published.

So I’ve looked for any message you’ve written in reply to me and I can’t
find one.

Post it again or a link and I’ll do my best to reply to your points.

No no no because this thread will be locked in a few days and the new thread will go on forever!!!


@Auld_Lang_Syne flag what you want.

@enso I can set it to close, dude.


i believe, as you’ve used quotes, that you might quote him. Wouldn’t want to bait someone into an argument, riiiight?

here’s the quote, i doubt anyone expects you to walk it back, but it’d be the right thing to do.

The most apropos thread for the derail is here:


But when your opponent is a crazy liar and you don’t beat him by double digits, it means you have serious problems of your own.


Aside from the source it all fits


I would say yes to this, precisely because it’s no longer a communist government. They work with private industry (more along the lines of a fascist government would). The current Russian government also respects the role of faith in public life. You’re spot on that the problem was always communism, in their eyes. That’s why the hardliners wanted nothing to do with even what most considered moderate communist states (Yugoslavia). Keep in mind that the real hardliners never had a strong role in policy making from pretty much the end of McCarthy on. Moderates in the intelligence apparatus ended up cultivating ties with Western European socialist parties in order to erode the support for the Soviets as the leaders of communism abroad. Hardliners tend to not be for real freedom, but they want a religious oriented, elitist dominated system with democratic characteristics, but a system that kept people in their “proper” place, through peaceful means if possible, but through force in necessary.


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