I can imagine old fart Nazis sitting in the bar, drinking their beers, longing for the good old days when being a Nazi was fun.
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Bless you, but I did take a course in Anarchism in college.
It’s been a while though. I can’t remember the exact weekend in the Spanish Civil War when Anarchism worked.
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Soooooooo… Literally what happened?
Try not siding with nazis then.
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No. It’s solely about wanting to use violence to shut down offensive speech. It’s not about Nazi’s as a special case. It’s not about using violence to oppose genocide.
How do I know? I’ll put this in dialog form to avoid twenty back and forth posts.
Ricard Spencer is not a Nazi. He is a white supremacist, but not a member of the Nazi party.
That’s a distinction without a difference. He’s calling for genocide.
Actually, no. The man has said a lot of odious things and is an over the top racist, but I can’t find a quote of him calling for genocide.
Well, what he says publically sure implies that he supports it. I bet he says he supports it in private.
He probably does, but you are moving into thought crime territory here. He’s not actually a Nazi and he is not calling for genocide. Those were the two criteria you held up as why we should use violence to suppress his speech.
I’ve seen him quote Nazi propoganda, do a Nazi salute on video and even say, “Heil Trump”. That makes him a Nazi.
No. That makes him an asshole, and maybe a dangerous one. But he’s not a Nazi and he’s not advocating genocide. Those were the two criteria.
Well, he certainly supports Nazi’s and white supremacists!
No doubt. And the same thing has been said about me in this very thread. And probably will be again. That’s why protecting the free speech rights of even the most odious, repugnant speech protects the rights of all of us.
I’m sure that somehow this will be spun as some kind of support for Spenser or Nazis or whatever, but it is support for free speech. Spenser has horrible ideas and they should be opposed with speech, demonstrations, the outing of the marchers, ridicule and the vote.
His is, as you would know if you could manage to raise your gaze from your navel for even a moment.
He’s also being opposed by punches to the head.
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It doesn’t sound like you actually read the thing you linked to. Anarchism is about destroying power. I wouldn’t say there’s an anarchist “agenda” though, just competing tendencies and overlapping affinities.
The CNT and FAI joined the popular front, unfortunately. That’s why anarchists don’t trust Bolsheviks. Well, one of many reasons.
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I’m realizing you were never interested in a good faith conversation.
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No, I am not. I am equating the desire of both liberals and conservatives to silence speech with violence. I am not equating the targets of their desired violence. Tom’s favorite color is blue Mindy’s favorite color is green. Pointing out that both Tom and Mindy have favorite colors is not equating blue and green.
I have never advocated pacifism. In fact, I specifically rejected it in one of my first posts.
I think you might be less offended if you considered my actual arguments rather than reading into them something that is not there. But maybe not. The Intenet lends itself to a pile-on effect where any unpopular opinion is exaggerated until it becomes a caricature of itself.
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While you give Nazis a good debate club have your circle jerk, motherfuckers are trying to burn my peoples shit down.
Literally.
People are getting killed, assaulted, forced into concentration camps, having their families ripped apart, living in fear.
The commissioners of this violence are both the state and private individuals.
Proud boys attempted to throw a smoke bomb through a homies window last night. Fortunately the glass held. This was late at night, and very well could have set the house on fire. A family lives there. Lucky to be unhurt, or worse.
When will you give permission, oh high and mighty moral assholes, for my homies to act in self defense? The fucking state sure as hell isnt gonna defend them.
Yes, I’m pissed. So excuse me if I don’t give a fuck what you think. The time to choose which side you are on is now.
And you don’t even understand. You are safe. You can’t understand. But you should try to fucking listen to the people getting hurt, and probably stop with the 100-level ethics bullshit.
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You are stating quite plainly that the targets are equally (un)deserving of violence, as though context and intent have no bearing on the issue. Mindy and Tom may have different favorite colors, but I don’t think the color green has ever advocated for the deportation of immigrants or whined about a non-existent white genocide. It is no more or less valid to like green over blue. It is VERY different to think Jews are secretly in control of society and must be stopped, versus thinking that Nazis are shitty people who need to be punched because they literally want to take over the world. You are examining the action in a vacuum and intentionally ignoring the facts of reality and history to make punching a Nazi just as bad as punching a lesbian, as if there were nothing different about the greater context of those actions, or any facts that might actually make one more or less appropriate than the other. Punching a Nazi is an action against the imposition of fascist white supremacy. Punching a black man is an act of violence against a marginalized group that seeks to impose power and control over them. They are. not. the. same.
That is equivocation. You are equivocating.
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Richard Spencer fails to note that Antifa is not the main opponent to his views. That group goes by the name of:
“FREEDOM LOVING AMERICANS WHO CAN’T STAND NAZI BULLSHIT”
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Antifa aren’t liberals.
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Neo-Nazis only have use for peaceable actions when it suits their purpose. But for the most part violence is their standard operating procedure and their goal. Violence is either threatened, implied, or expected from their actions with others. The same is not true of pretty much every other group you will use in comparison/contrast.
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You have said pretty much anything needed to be said here.
All Internets belong to you
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You can only do that if the speech being suppressed is equivalent. Spencer and the rest of the nazis (which he is) are practicing hate speech. Hate speech has one purpose: genocide. That is the context of the speech you are defending.
How many times do people have to explain to you free speech absolutists that restricting hate speech is self defense? That silencing people who wish you dead is self defense? That refusing the commons to hate is self defense? What will it take to get through to you that your false binary of “all speech is free or no speech is free” is empty, self-congratulatory rhetorical nonsense?
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I sure am enjoying all this swooning and hand-wringing over a philosophy of violence. I had long ago decided that making things better-without any risk of violence at all- is impossible. No matter how hard you might work to avoid anyone getting killed or wounded, there will be those who think you shouldn’t have broken the law. And if you manage to obey the law somehow, others will complain you’ve hurt their feelings.
Violence is not an absolutist black and white, clean or dirty kind of issue, it’s a matter of harm reduction.
And when you notice just how much violence we’ve been conditioned to accept as part of the “normal” function of democracy, you get a little less worried about a little punch in the face.
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It’s not an iceberg if the whole thing is underwater. Got it.
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Don’t strain yourself. Spencer isn’t stupid, he carefully adjusts his message on a gradient depending on his audience. To the mainstream, he just wants a place for poor fragile white people. With his followers, he’s quite explicit.
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