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In the estimation of many, his career laid the groundwork for the current state of the Republican party. You’re not being controversial; you’re getting pushback on the idea that his passing is that of someone who wasn’t complicit.
Oh no, you’re not getting away with putting words in my mouth. I’ve done nothing but be polite in discussing this with you and will not be painted as being offended when I’m not. If I were offended I wouldn’t discuss it with you at all. If you wish to continue this discussion politely, I’m happy to do so.
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To me, McCain represented a different kind of Republican insanity. He and Trump hated each other’s guts but their politics were both pretty bad for the welfare of the great majority of the American people and of many people in other countries.
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How does “doing something well that shouldn’t have been done at all” translate to “honor and integrity”?
In an unjust war waged by a draft-based army, honor and integrity can mean life in prison. That’s a lot to ask, so he might still have been a “decent person” by my standards.
But to act with noteworthy “honor and integrity” or to earn the title of “hero” requires not doing bad things. Even if it has a high personal cost.
I understand how we often cannot know whether a war is just until it is much too late, but what’s the point in pretending that “serving with honor” is a good thing when we have figured out that fighting the war in question actually was a bad thing?
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People rarely know who the winner and loser of a war will be. What’s the point of saying their sacrifice was unjust or whatever? Atrocities rarely don’t happen on both sides. It just so happens the winner is often seen more favorably in the eyes of history.
2/3 I.e. 66% of the colony sided with the British during the Revolutionary War. They’re seen as monsters in the eyes of history and people are more sympathetic to Americas side in that war.
Yeah, it’s true. When you compare people to a complete and utter monster like Trump, they do tend to look better. But that just says something about how horrible Trump is, not anything about the people being compared. Though the fact that McCain not just paved the path for Trump but also went along with his agenda, despite his show of disgust, does say something.
Talk about damning with faint praise!
I do wonder if part of McCain’s disgust with Trump was really disgust with himself, recognizing his own culpability in Trump’s rise.
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Nice thought!
Sadly, there’s no fucking way that spineless corporate Dems would do that.
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Oh, if they did, the howls we’d hear from the GOP about decorum, respect for the dead, etc! Assholes.
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Unfortunately,
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Come on man, McCain said some mean things about Trump. What more can you possibly expect from a Senator than for them to say a few mean things, and then - with one hard to explain exception - vote the party line in support of Trump? What more could a Senator possibly do? Surely he couldn’t have just resigned a few months ago so so his seat would come up for election this year rather than have it filled by a republican with a republican. Not that. No, saying mean things some times was the very most he could have done. Right?
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One ought to keep in mind that McCain voted for a version of ACA repeal that would have gutted medicaid and delivered a large tax cut for the rich, and that version went though the same process as the version he cast a deciding vote against. He also had numerous other opportunities to vote to stop the junk process that was used, and instead let it continue.
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Either there’s a huge disconnect between our value systems, or I am completely misunderstanding you.
What’s this? Are you arguing that might is right? Are you saying that if America had managed to win that particular war and install a capitalist dictatorship in Vietnam, it would have been right?
Are you arguing that it’s impossible to tell who is right and who is wrong, and therefore one should aways assume that one’s own side is right and try to win by all means necessary?
I’m confused. When deciding whether killing people is right or wrong, why should it matter who wins?
My point was that “sacrifice” and “service” are, by themselves, morally neutral. If the thing you are sacrificing for is a good thing, then sacrifice can make you a hero. But if the thing you are sacrificing for is a bad thing, that makes you more like your average suicide bomber.
So if you think that America’s involvement in Vietnam was a good thing, by all means honor the brave soldiers who went there to fight for their “service”. But if you have come to the conclusion that the war was a mistake, then it makes no sense to praise people for being part of the mistake. Apologize to them, don’t thank them. Thanking them will just encourage a new generation to root for the next pointless war without thinking about whether it’s right or wrong.
Militarism kills.
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Many of whom were not there by choice. There was a draft after all.
Look, military culture in the US is weird. Unlike many countries that have compulsory military service, we have a volunteer armed forces. That said many people that choose to enlist do so not because of any particular sense of duty but because they see it as their only option - gambling with their lives that they will have come out of the other side with more opportunities. This is why there are so many poor, disenfranchised, and undereducated that enlist. The armed forces recruitment specifically seeks out these demographics as easy marks.
I may not respect the wars we fight but I certainly respect the people that put their lives on the line to enlist - so people like me don’t have to.
That said, I also don’t subscribe to the blind fealty to the MIC that seems more pervasive than ever these days.
Like I said, military culture here is weird.
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Important. Thank you.
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My sister waitressed there and can confirm this. He was a PoS.
Bullfeathers used to be fun hangout until they installed a Karaoke machine.
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If everybody hates me, that proves I am actually helpful and good
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People, nonetheless countries rarely learn from mistakes. The experience of Vietnam didn’t prevent the Iraq War. We lost somewhere in the range of 60,000 soldiers, for what? And we have veterans who die of cancer because of agent orange. And we have vets that are really f**ked up in the head because of it I.e. PTSD. Why make these vets feel any worse about their experience? Why can’t you just let the debate over whether it was wrong or right, just die. Why can’t you just let it be and say they served with honor, thanks for your service?
