I mean, I know you love to dance around this subject… but there is one glaring difference that I see.
And yes, it has to do with conditions, culture and social programs.
But we can’t have that debate. LOL - I’m out. Have a good night.
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With out having THAT debate - you pointed out the red line was crazy high as well. Why is that so high? I completely agree that is crazy high in comparison. So something about our societies are different.
One theory out there that I think holds water and is the reason for the overall DOWNWARD trend of violent crime in the US since the 90s, is a decrease in environmental lead.
The point of the statistics being cited is to provide a national average for all countries. I’m 150% certain that England, Spain, France, and Australia have high-crime hot spots too. You cannot point at the statistics and say “that’s unfair because you’re measuring us the same way as every other country but somehow we’re the exception.” Of course if you drill deeper into nation-wide statistics, you’ll find wide variations from region to region and even city to city, but that’s true even in other countries. That still doesn’t change the fact that, on average, a woman is more likely to die from a gunshot in America than by literally any other means anywhere else in the developed world.
I think you’re taking an unfairly narrow reading of “policy” by restricting it to the immediate subject matter. Policy in a myriad of other realms - particularly in education and economics - can impact people’s likelihood to engage in spousal abuse - or crime in general.
American Exceptionalism is nationalistic horse shit. People are people. There is nothing distinct or special about America that makes its citizens substantially different from those of any other country. We are not uniquely free, or uniquely racist, or uniquely violent, or uniquely capitalistic, or uniquely capable, or uniquely stupid or smart. We don’t even uniquely fetishize firearms. There is no reason why programs and policies that have proven effective in the rest of the world would fail to produce similar (not identical) outcomes here. Improved health security, more equitable distribution of income, higher standards of education… these are all things that we are completely capable of undertaking that would improve so much in so many parts of this country. We just don’t. So I guess in that way we certainly are exceptional.
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I am not saying the stats are unfair or that because we are different that is OK we suck nor that the US is better despite the facts. I am saying we are DIFFERENT. I am saying maybe we share more in common with the the lesser developed nations than most care to admit.
Well I don’t usually use the term American Exceptionalism. Doing so distracted from my point. “Exceptional” can mean “unusually good”, but it also means “unusual, not typical” - or “different”. Which is my point.
People are the same more or less on an individual basis. But yeah, America has it’s own unique cultures and nuances. Not just compared to the world, but within itself. Not that there aren’t tons of similarities, but there are also many differences. This isn’t necessarily good or bad. But to suggest that there aren’t differences that has gotten us to where we are is rather “horse shit” IMHO.
As you pointed out we aren’t uniquely free or racist or violent - yet we are a unique combination of those things. Americans tend to be more individualistic than others. Europe has racism, but it isn’t nearly ingrained into the culture, in part because of the long history of slavery here and how much larger it was in scope. As I have pointed out, America’s violent crime rate since the 50s has always been higher than most European countries. There is no single thing to blame, but this mish mash of everything has us here today.
I agree with some of those points. There are certain polices worth trying or implementing in some fashion. There are certain polices that aren’t worth implementing. I am much more open to ideas of raising wages, increase education, and reduce the burden on the poor. I don’t have much hope for it all because of the overall inept government we have and the pretty fucked up two party system, but hey, we should be working for improvements.
At the same time, it is naive to think every that would work on a smaller scale from someplace like Finland would work everywhere. We see this now in how various states have more or less because of their natural resources or economic power. This sort of naivety lead to us thinking we could oust a dictator in Iraq and set up democracy and everything would be peachy, ignoring or not knowing all of the cultural roadblocks that stood in the way.
Would you use the same advice of “be more like Europe” for other countries out there who could use improvement?
The way you talk about the US being uniquely rich and diverse in its blend of many many different cultures, while the rest of the world is weird in its bland homogeneity, makes me think you haven’t travelled much. Or, at best travelled in a bubble as part of a packaged tour.
Hint: where do you think most of those cultures in the US came from ?
Also, your description of European cities would be charming if it weren’t so wrong.
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I’ve been to a few European cities staying mainly at hostels. How many American ones have you been to? There are many similarities, but many differences as well. And I am sure I didn’t venture to the worst parts, because why would one go there? I have seen the worst parts of coastal Mexico, though.
Certainly places like London have a very diverse make up. It is still a different make up as the US, lacks the same history of oppression, and some of the systemic issues.
Here are the main points - poverty seems the overarching correlation with crime. The US overall is very rich, but we keep a large percentage of our population down and hopeless. Hopelessness breeds lack of care about what happens to you and others. As I said, Europe and everywhere else also has racism, but it is simply not the same animal it is in the US. We have kept a portion of our population down for GENERATIONS. We have let the places they live crumble, while the others move out to the edges of urban sprawl (until they decide they like those old houses again and to be closer to their work, and move back in and fix up neighborhoods to the point the poor can’t live there any more.)
Europe doesn’t have the largest prison population in the world. Where something you did when you were 19 and spent a year in prison for drug possession or dealing leaves a permanent black spot, severely limiting your opportunities for the rest of your life. And our justice system unfairly targets the poor. Their incarceration and conviction rates are WAY higher than middle or upper class for the same crimes. Even something as simple as traffic fines can lead to jail time, impounding of a car, etc, destroying their ability to work.
Europe has poor people, for sure, but they don’t have the same level as systemic oppression that is here. Though Europe IS getting a taste of it in some areas with the various refugee groups. Many people don’t want them there, they have segregated them from the rest of the people, their opportunities to get a job and get on with their lives are severely limited. And people wonder why there is back lash and increased crime (which is hyped up by the media).
Certainly policy can help alleviate some of these ills, but a lot of it also attitude and culture. Equal protection under the law and in practice are two different things. I’ve said in the past that I think the social programs in places like the UK has helped keep crime down. Our social programs have grown as well, and I am sure it prevents some people from turning to crime. So as I said, some Euro programs are worth using or adapting here. But to think all of these problems and more can be fixed with weapons laws is naive and absurd.
But hey, let’s flip the script, if the US and Europe are so alike, how do you account for the increased violence here? Like I have repeatedly said, before new guns laws and their laws were similar, the UK and Australia never had the same level of murder rate. No one seems to have an answer as to why. If the laws were the same, then the laws weren’t the reason for the difference in crime. Today, guns aside, in the chart provided above the domestic abuse deaths by other weapons is much higher, our rapes are higher, I believe our assaults are higher (sort of hard to compare as what the two countries consider a violent crime differ.) Those things have nothing to do with firearm laws, so WHY is the US more violent? Could it possibly be, in the realm of all possibilities, that we have different issues and experiences that have lead to create more crime
No, because such a law would have some discernable relationship to evidence and consensus reality. So that’s right out.
If you want to fit in, you need to climb up on the latest pile of bodies and start preaching a pre-existing, cultish ideology of either gun control or gun rights. Be sure to accuse the other side of being callous opportunists, and keep ice in your mouth so the butter won’t melt.
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I literally don’t even know what is going on right now. Theres just so much to unpack, I don’t know where to start.
(My family is from Bow Road, but London has no oppression or systemic issues. LOL whut?)
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