Shooting at San Bernardino Elementary School Planned as Murder-Suicide, Authorities Say

We have a patchwork of laws that make it technically illegal for a man with a criminal history to get his hands on a large-caliber revolver, depending on which state or county he happens to be in. But as this tragedy clearly illustrates we do not have the kind of laws that would make it difficult for such a person to get his hands on a large-caliber revolver. (The suspect’s criminal record includes domestic violence charges among other things.)

For that to happen we’d have to completely shift our collective attitude on firearm ownership. You can’t make something difficult for criminals to obtain as long as it’s trivial for law-abiding people to obtain.

Hong Kong has some of the most progressive free speech laws in all of the People’s Republic of China, yet pro-democracy protesters continue to get arrested. Conclusion: laws protecting free speech are bogus.

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One day you’ll move past your obsolete behavior and thoughts. I don’t understand why you resist. We only want to improve the quality of life for all people.

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for all

There’s your problem.

The only people whose rights and quality of life that needs protecting and enhancing are white male gun owners. Everyone else can go fuck themselves.

Or get a gun … eh, same diff.

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I might have met Cedric Gibbons.

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That’s a very good question.

RE: Your chart - it is interesting it lists only “high income” countries. What does it look like in lower income countries? Does domestic abuse correlate more with lower income in the US (I am betting so, but maybe not).

Honestly I think one of the things that makes the US stand out in many of the bad statistics is that we are a HUGE country. And thus we have a huge number of of people below the poverty level. 14.5 million. That is more people than several of the smaller European countries. Around the world POVERTY seems to be the main correlation to crime. I honestly believe that is why our stats are so out of wack on many things. We are a rich nation, but too many of us are not.

Don’t look at me, but Czechs are the #1 beer drinkers in the world (pints per capita). I am curious where Russia is on there.

if your benchmark is, say, Brasil the US is still the bestest country in the world. so everything fine from your PoV?

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When the first pedestrian was accidentally hit and killed by an automobile, it was front page news. And the frequency of this kind of event only increased from there. But people got tired of the same story, and industry wanted to get it’s version of the truth out there, and to this day, more people die in car accidents than in any war, but it’s accepted as a cost of being an American.

While these “unfortunate incidents” with the gun play can’t be pushed back to page six the way car crashes are, there’s still the same machinery at work here. Another news item will displace this one, we’ll find a cat video we like, and the whole sorry story will get pushed aside - in part because it’s just too painful to think about rationally. Until the next time, when we make yet another tally on the wall of this prison.

A truly free society would be able to do something about this kind of thing. But ours is not a society like that.

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Why is “the US is a big country, okay?” always the “get out of soul-searching analysis free” card (closely followed by "well [developing nation] is worse!)? Yes, we’re a big country. We have a lot of people living here. But guess what? That doesn’t matter. First, the entire reason these statistics are a function of “X out of 100,000” is to remove the bias of population size. This works for comparing all kinds of things (poverty, unemployment, crime, income, illness, cancer…) between states here in the US, and between countries all over the world, but somehow whenever anyone tries to compare the US to literally any other place on the entire goddamn planet, we’re this special snowflake that makes it completely impossible for us to be accurately quantified by statistics. That’s bullshit.

Second, there are over twice as many people living in Europe, and they’re doing way better by comparison. Geographically, Canada is even bigger than we are, and they’re doing way better too. If you just want to compare places with similar population sizes, we can look at California (38 million in 2013) versus Canada as a whole (35 million). The AG’s office for the state of California puts the rate of homicide per 100,000 women at 1.6 in 2014 (page 7, pdf), which is twice what Canada reports according to the graph up-thread.

Geography and population size are not excuses for why our statistics are so completely fucked up compared to the rest of the developed world. It’s likely true that poverty is a major contributing factor to violent crime (such as homicide), but again, there is no geographical or populational excuse for why the US stands alone as measurably worse than every other developed nation. The most important difference between us and these other nations is policy. This is on us to fix, it can be fixed, and it should be fixed. Hand-waving it away as “well, we’re just too big” or “well, too many people live here and there will always be poverty” is. not. good. enough.

tl;dr: maybe we look bad in all of these bad statistics because we’re actually bad at those things, not because the statistics somehow have a uniquely terrible time of establishing what reality is like in this country.

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I would assume most problems a society faces is a combination of inherited baggage or culture (which can be hard to change but not impossible as there is precedent with other nations), and more importantly it is a problem of education.

Coincidentally the US has an education crisis, which may account for the steady rise in overall violence not just handguns.

Primarily because gun enthusiasts and NRA apologists are in a state of denial about how they themselves are the biggest part of the problem.

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Its a debunking of another chart by politifact, you can read the full article, I posted a link under the chart.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/14/everytown-gun-safety/anti-gun-group-uses-old-data-incorrectly-compare-i/3

Someone else already said this, but per-capita should do away with any population density issues. It doesn’t make sense that these stats should increase because America is large when we’re looking at per-capita numbers. They should be pretty similar to other countries that are similar.

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No, I don’t think they can absorb all the blame here. American politics are a pay as you go kind of thing, and the gun lobby is just one of many such organizations keeping things the way they are. When voters can long up enough cash to offset the lobbies, then we can count on the politicians listening to us. Other than that, some kind of revolution is the only way to make this system change.

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Right-wingers would like to assert that the American statistics would be great if we only compare white people in America to people in Europe.

They bring up Brazil because that’s where black people live.

They can’t lay out the whole argument here because it gets flagged and eaten. They have to dance around the edges and hope that’s enough of a distraction.

LOL. No. Did you miss the several comments about domestic abuse being an issue and should be stopped?

Population SIZE isn’t the only measure of a society. Who that population is, where they are, how they are distributed can have crazy different out comes in stats.

It isn’t a “special snowflake”, but it is different in many ways than any other place on earth. Obviously the stats show the US has it worse off than some places, but what, exactly are the reasons for that?

Hell, various areas of the US look totally different in their cultural make up and attitudes than other places in the same country. Let’s not forget that for at least the first half of the nations existence, people generally considered themselves members of their state before a member of their country.

If this was about Iraq or Japan, or South Africa or several other places, people wondering aloud why “They can’t be more like ‘us’?” would be seen as pretty culturally insensitive.

It isn’t an excuse, but it is a factor. Our society and history is different than anywhere else. One big difference is our cities and how spread out we are. When an area gets a little old, the well to do move, and the poor inhabit the crumbling infrastructure. Conversely, I noted most Euro cities are not only denser overall, but the mix of economic ranges are more varied. Which means public infrastructure is kept up because the well to do use it too.

Below you say all we need is a better policy (what ever that means), but maybe consider for a minute the US has different issues and problems than in other parts of the “high income” world. I think we are a little more “3rd world” in some respects once you peel off the veneer.

If poverty is one of the main factors of violent crime, the fact that we have more pockets of just poor people than elsewhere is a contributing factor for the crime stats. It is why you can look at a city district map and see certain areas awash in blood, and 15 min away there is nearly no homicides… And I think a big factor is a ratio of poor to middle and upper class is a factor. Certain areas have been devastated and suppressed economically, there is no where for them to go. When there is no hope for a better life, people are more willing to do what ever they can to get ahead.

Policy in what way? How is Europe’s policy on spousal abuse different than in the US, since that is the issue here.

Though I would agree there are some polices that the US does need to change. Drug laws are a huge policy change that I think would reduce violent crime. At the same time I am not naive enough to think policy changes are the only thing stopping us from mirroring other “high income countries”.

TL;DR - It isn’t American Exceptionalism that makes us better, or our sins excusable, but it is what makes us DIFFERENT.

By different you mean more violent and homicidal by 200%?

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I want to touch this one more time - I think it most certainly does. If it didn’t matter at all then the crime rate would be more or less the same all over. It isn’t - not by a long shot. Certain areas are hot beds for increased violence. The US has dozens of these across the nation and it certainly adds up and skews the stats. If we could locate and alleviate the causes of violence in those worst areas, we would see our numbers start lining up with these other high income nations.

Conversely, you have one murder in a county of 15,000 people, and if you are comparing murder rates by counties, it might look like some rural area is a hot bed of crime, when it was in reality it was one person, and 2 counties over is where dozens are dying even with a lower per capita rate. So stats don’t tell the whole story.

Logically, the fact that our rates are higher than other nations, wouldn’t that lead one to conclude something is DIFFERENT than in those other countries? The conditions? Socioeconomics? Cultural attitudes? Social programs?

Stop blaming “domestic violence” on mental health issues.

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