As for ministers/priests being forced, I say never say never. Maybe current case law is that way, but if you went back to 1950 and told my grandparents that gay people could get legally married and would live normal out lives, they would have said the same thing, “never gonna happen!” Heck, if you said 20 years ago that a baker would be successfully sued for not making a cake for a gay wedding, they would look at you crosseyed. Maybe in 75 years the culture will have moved to a point where it’s no longer considered acceptable, and courts have a way of following the culture.
Personally, I look forward to the day when established organized religions lose their special status under the law/constitution. Not because I have any desire to tear down peoples’ religious institutions, no matter how much I disagree with them, but because I don’t think getting the special carve out to live according to one’s own spirituality or conscience should not be reserved for particular institutions- that’s a right that should be extended to everybody.
Well, as a lifelong Midwesterner, here’s an attempt at explaining where it might come from.
See, the thing is, there are people out there who have Christian beliefs who reject the argument that the Bible says anything about homosexuality, and who want a Christian wedding and to attend church with their spouse.
The thing is, it’s relatively easy for a pastor to find NT counter-arguments to that. Whether you want to rehash 2000+ years of theological debate is up to you; just putting it out there that there are plenty of churches out there that will flat out say, no, we reject this because it’s just sinful behavior.
Where it gets crazy is that there are pastors out there who think that, in order to have a license to perform marriages, they’ll be forced to perform weddings for homosexual couples. Which, I don’t know, maybe there will be someone out there who would try to make an example of a preacher, but I don’t think it’d get very far because honestly, how could they make a judge believe that they want to be married by someone openly hostile to performing the ceremony, and beyond that, a preacher can already refuse to perform a marriage.
And of course some of it got started by morons who ran wedding chapels who claim that, no, they’ll only perform Christian weddings. Because wedding chapels are so sacred.
tl;dr I get where they’re coming from, but they’re morons.
well then you are certainly the rare exception, but then again you are a BB’er so likely more open minded then most people.
it is only appropriate to make such an express to someone of one’s own faith, who might be consoling to know someone was doing the same (whatever, prayer in this case) that you do. that is the only case in which it is appropriate. in all other cases it is disrespectful of other cultures/beliefs/ways of thinking and comes across as any number of ways that one can’t really predict…disturbing, frightening, insensitive, rude, belittling, condescending, insulting, invasive, threatening, ignorant, etc. It really isn’t appropriate, even if it is well intended.
But it did exist, and could exist again. Indeed, a powerful-enough group could reintroduce it under the right circumstances (and slavery does currently exist, if not limited to a single group, or in an organized fashion). It is a real thing. Oppression by a powerful group is a real thing. A real thing, with verifiable and deadly side effects, that black people in the US have to deal with all the time.
Hell, on the other hand, does not exist (if one is an atheist). It has never existed (if one is an atheist) and it never will. No amount of declarations of desire – even by the most powerful group – can will it into existence. Is the sentiment behind such a statement disturbing? Yes, but – as you note – when pushed, they drop it. Because they are expressing a sort of metaphorical/rhetorical frustration, not a concrete/achievable game plan. This is entirely different from when some members of the generalized fundamentalist cohort suggest that certain groups be rounded into camps: That’s an actual, conceivably-actionable threat. It’s the difference between saying, “I hope someone shoots you, some day,” and “I’m going to shoot you as soon as I can.”
I do want to applaud your attempts to push back proactively, by the way. My experience has been that making it personal (regardless the issue) can have a profound impact on people.
I don’t think I am. The most obnoxiously self-righteous jerks get all the media play because they’re entertaining and polarizing and get eyeballs on ads. They do not actually speak for all of us.
I mean, a lot of atheists/agnostics, not to mention pagans, seem to think that Christianity is synonymous with homophobia. 71% of the US is Christian, and 63% of the US favors same-sex marriage. That means that nearly half of US Christians are cool with gay marriage (at the least, and that’s assuming that there are zero non-Christian homophobes). I can understand why the evangelical jagoffs would leave a bad taste in your mouth, but please don’t assume they’re a representative sample.
He was 14 years old when he became Emperor and 18 when he was assassinated. Imagine the average 14 year old being told “You are now Emperor and everybody has to do exactly what you say”.
The insanity was making a 14 year old emperor. What he did was probably what a lot of 14 year olds would do in his situation. But later commentators couldn’t comment on his age because that would cast aspersions on the history of their own royal families, who also probably had under age kings at some point.
A lot of the de facto slavery in the US is of South American illegal immigrants. While politicians rant about immigration control, the people who benefit from illegal immigrant slavery continue to contribute to party funds to ensure that the supply of immigrants doesn’t dry up.
That was just y attempt at an example to show how rude it is to bring up ones own religious practice in the context of someone else’s tragedy. I think it isn’t okay regardless of belief, I only proffered those up to “flip the script” and show how totally inappropriate I feel it is.
I’m glad to hear that a Christian would be okay with someone doing vodo or a pagan ritual for their significant other, and would see through to their intentions instead of getting caught up in the way it was presenting. Keep the open mind, it is a truly valuable quality!
Valid point, but I think there is a difference between the role of a caterer on the officiant at a wedding, though… Often times, you expect the person marrying you to help express your love of each other to those attending. I don’t think you expect much out of the caterer besides good food.
I don’t drink alcohol, but otherwise that sounds very similar to many of my prayer rituals.
I’ll note that our Yuletide celebrations start with a short round of bells, etc. for Sunrise, but the larger and more important part of the celebration involves bacon and coffee. (For those that want them, with plenty of other things available for those that don’t.) Oddly enough, of the 20 or so regulars, slightly less than half of us are Pagan, with others being Agnostic, Christian, Buddhist, etc.
