The juggalos, class struggle, and the left

[timrowledge]

Hardly ever true.

However, the enema of my enemy may well be my little snigger.

[Ryuthrowsstuff]

Kind of beyond the point but dude is pretty confused about Guam. It’s not in Latin America (rather Micronesia) The natives are pacific islanders not Latinos. And it’s not yet a state because they haven’t even begun the process for statehood. More recent pushes were for common wealth status similar to Puerto Rico’s.

[JamesBean]

He’s not confused about guam, you just didn’t read it closely. He lumps guam in with PR not because of geography but because of how they are both US territories. Guam was subject to american colonialism, like the phillipines (which he also mentions) first being spanish colonized and then taken over by the US. We just didn’t make the PI into a territory like the way we did guam.

[Wanderfound]

@Ryuthrowsstuff

Two things. First the South was a model the Nazi’s looked to in regards to race. And perhaps on a cultcha ‘n’ hertage level thanks to that whole lost cause ideology thing that became huge during the 2nd clan period. But there wasn’t much political similarity between the two. And ultimately Hitler went with eradication over subjugation. As much as the Nazis were fans of forced labor that was more of a slow, productive execution than economic linch pin. Jim crow was definitely an influence and inspiration on the Nuremberg laws. But the Nazi’s went a Fuck load farther and harder.

I don’t compare the Nazis to Jim Crow; I compare them to the dreams of the Confederacy. They were both aggressively expansionist imperial states based upon racial supremacy, extreme patriarchy, slavery, murder and the suppression of the working class. The Confederates had plans to create an empire of slavery stretching to the Straits of Magellan.

I do see a large political similarity between the two.

@Ryuthrowsstuff

Second this interwar period represents the only true flourishing of fascist movements in the US. Prewwi you were looking at the early rise and codification of fascism. Leading through the war and into the depression you had clashes between the labor movement, socialist ET Al and fascists the rise of the second clan and major anti immigrant wave. That was the last period where the American far right really resembled the far right in Europe. And had direct ties to it. The success of the labor movement here, The new deal. And the enthusiastic fight against Hitler and European fascism are what purportedly turned the US resolutely away from European style fascism and ethnonationalism forever. Too much of our national identity became tied up in those things for such ideologies to really pass muster here.

See above; I view the Confederacy as proto-fascists. And, unlike Germany, the USA was never properly deNazified. The Compromise of 1877 killed any chance of that.

From that perspective, the USA has had a substantial fascist influence upon its politics all the way back to the 3/5ths Compromise. The Slave Power conspiracy. The Confederacy. The Klan. Jim Crow. The Business Plot. America First. Operation Paperclip. Patton’s resistance to German deNazification. Nixon. McCarthy.

It’s why American socialism has been historically suppressed to an exceptional degree.

@Ryuthrowsstuff

Which is why it’s not * at all* curious that our current political moment is starting to so closely mirror that era. Massive anti immigrant moments and racial purity movements. Talk of preserving cultures from outside influences. And the symbols left from it, like confederate statues. Are becoming topics of debate and the sites of violent clashes. All that same ideological fuel has come back to the fore. With the same international ties.

I think that the virally networked nature of the 21st century is causing a convergence of global fascism. The Americans are getting more European, the Europeans are getting more American.

The struggle in America isn’t USA vs Russia, or even Americans vs Trump. It’s fascism vs everybody.

[gracchus]

Thanks for this. All I can add is that the unspoken endgame of fascism always seems to be a sort of neo-feudalism, a politcal/economic/cultural return to the bad old days before the 18th century Enlightenment (which is why wealthy Dark Enlightenment and neoreactionary types like Peter Thiel and actual autocrats like Putin support the global alt-right as a whole). They may not all want a return to institutional sexism, aristocracy/extreme economic inequality, slavery and serfdom, anti-Semitism, religious and sectarian warfare, provincial xenophobia and racism, rule by strongmen (thugs and/or corporate robber barons), and other aspects of feudalism, but they all want at least one of those things really badly. Even more than racism, it is this general retrograde impulse that binds these movements together.

[Wanderfound]

@gracchus

All I can add is that the unspoken endgame of fascism always seems to be a sort of neo-feudalism, a return to the bad old days before the 18th century Enlightenment

[clifford]

I am a careless dispenser of cheap platitudes.

[LeprechnGangstr]

Also add the ridiculous amount of overcharging US prosecutors are allowed to get away with and suddenly having a dime bag in your truck and your hunting rifle in the back becomes possession with intent to distribute and possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

[Ryuthrowsstuff]

He specifically states that Guam is not yet a state because Americans view Latinos as savages. Which. You can make that arguement on Puerto Rico. They’ve had repeated votes in favor of starting the statehood process.

But Guam is not in Latin America. The original residents are closer to Filipinos, Hawaiian Islanders, and Samoans than Latino or Hispanic ethnic groups. And they’ve only recently begun trying to move towards statehood. Puerto Rico has had multiple votes to move forwards, but congress hasn’t really acted in response. I’m sure some of that has to do with racism. But the GOP (also where the racism lives) is generally speaking opposed to doing so in an effort to avoid adding a bunch of probably guaranteed to the DNC electoral votes and congress people up in there.

But like I said besides the point. Just found the lapse interesting

@Wanderfound

I do see a large political similarity between the two.

Sure. I was more clarifying the actual points of inspiration and connection than arguing. There seemed to be less of a direct inspirations, reference too and similarity to the actual confederacy. The earliest forms of fascism followed around a half century after the Confederacy collapsed. And it didn’t really become a thing in itself until WWI and the post WWI era. The inspirational points are more in those culture under threat claims, segregation laws, and general repression of a single race and all that. That became emblematic of the unreconstructed South. Less in the actual political structures and aims than in its dealings on race. And less the Confederacy’s dealings on race than the later common re-writing of Confederate history and the dealings on race that were concurrent with the formation and rise of fascism. Together with all the fucked upness of the 2nd Klan era, the interwar period, and the depression.

@Wanderfound

I view the Confederacy as proto-fascists

You could. But there isn’t, from my knowledge, much actual connection there in terms of actual political structure and aims. Working to preserve slavery. And seeking to create an explicitly white supremacist nation state or not. The confederacy was largely working to preserve the American system as it had existed up till that point. Representative government, checks and balances, independent judiciary, free elections, bill of rights protections. Just you know where Blacks were 2/3rds of a person, not entitled to any of that, were physical property. And the franchise was heavily restricted. They didn’t really hit many of the political marks for fascism.

You can look at the Umberto Ecco essay @wait_really linked to

Ur-Fascism | Umberto Eco

Which seems to still be the default text for defining fascism. Or other lists of features of fascism. There’s some of them they loosely hit. But a lot of them are lacking.

So the inspirational part for Hitler was more in the South’s white supremacy. And the neo-confederacy, re-writing of the confederacy’s aims, and Southern politics concurrent with the rise of fascism.

And the more general point being that this period, with a fair bit of influential American Fascism took place during fascism’s early rise and spread. Its after this period where American Fascism starts to fade or look characteristically different than its European or world wide counterparts. The claim that European style fascism could never again gain purchase here was on its face foolish and wishful thinking. But the central idea that there was a difference in how it operated here for a long time was valid. Its interesting to see things do this:

@Wanderfound

a convergence of global fascism. The Americans are getting more European, the Europeans are getting more American.

That really hasn’t happened since the interwar period. And the overall rhetoric on the right is very much starting to look like it did during that same time period. Which is frightening. A key thing to remember about that is the “White” racial in group was a lot smaller and more rigidly defined. Workers were pretty much straight fucked. And political corruption wasn’t just common. It was sort of the default. The alt-right are basically arguing for a return to those exact conditions, but calling them a good thing.

@gracchus

Even more than racism, it is this general retrograde impulse that binds these movements together.

Racism seems to what brought them together. Fascism and incredibly reactionary social goals seem to be whats kept them together and forged it into a consistent movement. Its much harder to see the different core groups that came together to make this Alt-Right thing as separate than it once was. They’ve definitely forged themselves into a single consistently Fascist movement at this point.

[euansmith]

@Wanderfound

Dr Wanderfound, who hasn’t made enough money to pay any income tax in over a decade.

Like Donald Trump?

[sosumi]

LOL

More people backstage, as it were, than attendees.

[timrowledge]

@gracchus

Thanks for this. All I can add is that the unspoken endgame of fascism always seems to be a sort of neo-feudalism, a politcal/economic/cultural return to the bad old days before the 18th century Enlightenment

I think you are being a bit generous here. Feudalism at least includes some hint of reciprocity, with the lord supposedly taking responsibility for the security of the vassals. This lot really wouldn’t want that sort of limit on their freedom to be assholes. Think more like NK as the ultimate aim; a theocracy where the rich are gods.

Soylent Gold. The only solution.

[popobawa4u]

@permafrosty

So is this fake? Juggalo gangs - Wikipedia
I don’t have class solidarity with actual criminal gangs, sorry.

As if you can trust The State to tell you who your allies should be in a fight against oppression!
I know - let’s ask the FBI to help… /s

[RickMycroft]

@Wanderfound

Juggalo speaker warns Justin Bieber fans that they could be next.

…
Don’t rush me. I’m thinking, I’m thinking…

[RickMycroft]

@Gyrofrog

I recall that happening to a SubGenius.

Rev. Mary Magdalen

[mous]

sounds like another name for the tea party.

[the_borderer]

Probably because the tea party were using left wing tactics while simultaneously dismissing them if they were being used against them. The fascists calling themselves “alt-right” do the same.

[wellclosed]

Maybe, hopefully, when they’re done with the waffentwerps, they will go get some Burning Man

[Wanderfound]

Still mulling on this, and I might have some more thoughts later. I remembered another link of relevance, though:

This anti-Nazi film went viral after Charlottesville. It may be less effective...

[RickMycroft]

I don’t know why the guy in the film was so surprised that someone might object to Freemasons.

Anti-Masonic Party