Sadly, given today’s political climate, that’s nearly a necessity. Otherwise you risk having your water shut off or denied, your ability to get housing removed, and your person booted from the country. At the very least one of the core values of America is the ability to say what you want, regardless of who you might be. To deny non-citizens who are living here the right to speak out is to deny that same right for everyone living here.
Totally agreed for the exact same reasons. One of the best things the American military did for me was to send me out of the US, where I could read what other newspapers were writing about our policies and actions–to this day I can remember the first time I read the International Herald Tribune and having my mind blown by the differing viewpoints offered there.
...Rather than pass something which causes more harm than good...these folks put their foot down and said "No, we need actual reform..."
Oh, puh-lease. The Dems are on their way out in the next term, and do you actually think the Republicans are going to focus on anything but getting rid of healthcare and removing regulations? If so, I've got oceanfront property in A-Ree-Zohn-Ahhhh...
You forget that Dianne Feinstein is on the board that controls all of our subversive alphabet spook programs. She’s one tough old Dem that’s been around a long time and holds a lot of sway.
They swore an oath to the constitution. Which includes the Fourth Amendment. They may as well be using the Fourth Amendment to wipe their ass. Seems like a rather egregious betrayal to me.
You do whatever you want. The rest of us, those of us who are capable of reading and understanding the English language, can rely on this clause as evidence they betrayed their oath…
that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same
They didn’t violate their oath, they voted against:
“A bill to reform the authorities of the Federal Government to require the production of certain business records, conduct electronic surveillance, use pen registers and trap and trace devices, and use other forms of information gathering for foreign intelligence, counterterrorism, and criminal purposes, and for other purposes.”
You may feel like they’re traitors, but that doesn’t make it so.
It would make Democracy impossible if voting an unpopular opinion would mean treason.
What you say is entirely true. And I’m not even sure if I should be in favor of the bill, as I doubt my own rights will be respected by a government that doesn’t respect its own citizens’ rights, or if I should selfishly oppose it because there is a danger that the American people will think “propblem solved” after passing it.
Either way, I have stake in the issue and feel that I have more of a right to comment and complain than, say, on gun ownership or health insurance (two issues where Europeans traditionally complain about what Americans do).
Aside from the issue at hand, I objected to your statement that “if you don’t like a place, you shouldn’t be living there” because it’s too one-dimensional. What if someone mostly likes the place, but dislikes one thing? Moving away might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Non-citizens don’t get to vote, but why shouldn’t they try to influence their neighbors’ opinions?
This could also lead to a “No True Scotsman” situation: “All the people here agree.” - “No I don’t.” - “Well then you shouldn’t really be here.”. Though I admit that this only becomes a real problem when it’s used against citizens.
Well, that’s what you say but I recognize your picture, Mayor Ford. I guess you just think all us hayseeds south of the border haven’t got the latest software, uh huh.
No, they did not vote against it. They maneuvered to prevent the bill from even coming to a vote. Do you really not understand these things?
The senators squashed a bill that would limit the executive branch of the government from obtaining secret warrants. Warrants that are sometimes obtained with zero evidence. Warrants that allow the executive branch to spy on whomever they choose, for whatever reason they choose, and they are able to execute those warrants with no oversight. And, because the warrants are obtained in secret and kept secret, none of the process can be challenged by anyone outside the wall of secrecy.
Explain how that is not wiping one’s ass with the Fourth Amendment.
Yeah, I think a lot of this thread comprises fairly useless noise over whether Cory meant “traitors” as a literal, legalistic condemnation of the legislators’ actions as being counter to their oaths to defend the Constitution, or just that they betrayed the trust placed in them by many (if not most) of their constituents to protect the civil rights and liberties of those constituents while still remaining within the legal boundaries of their jobs. Doesn’t matter, just like when he calls Rob Ford a “laughable bumblefuck” rather than just an asshole. In the strictest sense, Ford is neither a literal asshole (otherwise his suits wouldn’t fit, even as poorly as they already do, nor would he speak English, even as poorly as he does), nor can he be said to literally fuck bumbles. But Cory disapproves of the guy’s actions, just as he disapproves of this particular voting outcome, and he can use “traitors” as slightly hyperbolic invective just as freely as he can call the mayor of his hometown a “laughable bumblefuck.” Maybe Cory actually does think a strong legal case of treason can be made against these politicians for voting this way, but I doubt it. He doesn’t need me to speak for him, but I read this as a strong condemnation of the outcome without it actually calling for their literal prosecution and execution for treason.
If a thread on an internet forum doesn’t include pedantic quibbling over word choice, then something is seriously wrong. Is it too late to invoke cloture and end this meaningless derail?
Okay, people, before you continue bashing Senators for voting against
cloture on the Freedom Act yesterday, you need to understand that the
Freedom Act REAUTHORIZED THE PATRIOT ACT, which is one of the biggest
threats to liberty ever created. As of now, it’s set to sunset in June
2015…which it needs to do. THAT is why many of the U.S. Senators opposed the
“Freedom” Act. Yes, they need to reform the NSA, but that needs to be
done via a clean bill, not this monstrosity that was being debated.
Here’s Rand Paul’s statement explaining his position: "Rand Paul----- Nov 18, 2014
"Earlier this evening, Sen. Rand Paul voted against further
consideration of the USA Freedom Act as it currently extends key
provisions of the Patriot Act until 2017. Sen. Paul led the charge
against the Patriot Act extension and offered the following statement:
“‘In the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Americans were
eager to catch and punish the terrorists who attacked us. I, like most
Americans, demanded justice. But one common misconception is that the
Patriot Act applies only to foreigners—when in reality, the Patriot Act
was instituted precisely to widen the surveillance laws to include U.S.
citizens,” Sen. Paul said, “As Benjamin Franklin put it, ‘those who
trade their liberty for security may wind up with neither.’ Today’s vote
to oppose the extension and further consideration of the Patriot Act extension proves
that we are one step closer to restoring civil liberties in America.’”
It took a trivial amount of time with Google to determine that what Rand Paul claims is essentially bullshit. I suggest you too spend some time with Google.
It is laughable to think Senator Paul or any of his ilk will do anything about this in either the short or long term–they like the status quo just fine. I trust Senator Paul not quite as far as I can throw him, but I do trust the American Library Association and their take on the stupidly named bill:
Libraries and librarians are and have been on the front lines of the fight to preserve the Fourth Amendment and foster government transparency in a post 9/11 world. The new USA Freedom Act introduced today by Sen. Leahy and others, if passed, would finally allow judges to assess all gag orders that accompany every so-called National Security Letter, empower new Special Advocates to meaningfully champion civil liberties in FISA Court proceedings upon judicial request and, once and for all, end the dragnet collection of US citizen's telephone records under the Patriot Act.
Yeah, spot on. Cory generally speaks informally to a known audience, the language is meant to be loose and punchy. It kind of bugs me though that if I accept that, I have to also accept that Fox news does the same. I’m much happier just writing off their whole viewer base as morons.
