Did you see John Oliver this weekend?
Verily, it is baffling that the response to this massacre seems to be this sudden unquenchable desire to⌠take down a flag. Even John Stewartâs rather touching (and much circulated) piece on the Daily Show seemed weighted towards the flag and the street names.
Will they be removing copies of the Dukes of Hazard boxed set as well?
Interestingly, the elementary school I went to when I lived in Mississippi is apparently one of the 9 schools that the Atlantic article says are named after Jefferson Davis. While, I still live in the south in North Carolina, I thankfully no longer live in Mississippi. The neighborhood my mother lives in here in North Carolina has every single street named after confederate generals and war heroes. Itâs all kind of fucked up, but the craziest thing to me is that what we know as the confederate flag was only ever flown as a battle flag and never officially recognized as a flag of the Confederate States of America.
2 Likes
Would you still be baffled if it were a flag with a white hood on it? Not everyone can look at the battle flag of a rebel nation that made slavery its cornerstone, since often used in opposition to civil rights movements, and see only the Dukes of Hazzard.
7 Likes
Itâs not baffling to me.
So in response to this latest massacre, we should cry out yet again, and yet again just as uselessly, for more gun control?
Yes, guns are a problem, and many people are saying so yet again this time. But so is white supremacist murder and terrorism. And so is a general cultural environment that condones and even sometimes sanctions THAT problem.
This mass shooting differs from many others in that it was clearly motivated by white supremacist hate, and that hate has many sources and forms of support, including a racist and in some places ubiquitous flag.
If you find efforts to focus on the flag (efforts which are made by almost no one who doesnât think guns are not also a problem), youâre the one whoâs âbaffling.â
Exactly. To many black observers, itâs a symbol of hatred, for them. And of terror.
13 Likes
[quote=âmilliefink, post:25, topic:60266â]If you find efforts to focus on the flag (efforts which are made by almost no one who doesnât think guns are not also a problem), youâre the one whoâs âbaffling.â[/quote]Itâs right there in the post:
There was a gathering sense of unease already on Monday, a worry that the focus on removing the flag might provide a too-easy exit for leaders in South Carolina to declare victory and move on without grappling with deeper, systemic strains of racism in a state where the black poverty rate is nearly three times as high as the white rate; black incarcerations rates are nearly four times as high; black arrest rates are disproportionately high; and black high-school graduation rates lag white rates.
[quote=âmilliefink, post:25, topic:60266â]This mass shooting differs from many others in that it was clearly motivated by white supremacist hate[/quote]I was not left with the impression that this mass shooting was particularly less motivated by mental illness than usual, or that other mass shootings were particularly less motivated by hate. But it could well be that I havenât been following the story closely enough.
1 Like
Weâre so progressive we put oppressed people on our flag. The somewhat explicit threat of beheading is arguable.
Not just by hate. White supremacist hate.
Sure, but it is a focus on white supremacist hate. Itâs a start on a problem thatâs one example of whatâs also exemplified by those other systemic problems. Yes, some might address this one form of racism and move on, but some might also be encouraged to go from this one to some of the others. And itâs not like leaders in South Carolina are already grappling mightily with other deep, systemic strains of racism.
1 Like
Boxes with such typos are usually destroyed for insurance purposes.
3 Likes
Or copyright infringement.
California must be a pretty dangerous place. So many labels saying ââŚcontains a chemical known to cause cancer in CaliforniaââŚ
2 Likes
wow, you draw exactly like Matthew Inman.
1 Like
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty
1 Like
Because images of guns are just as bad as the real thing? Because symbols of racist hatred should be left as is, for reasons? Not sure what youâre getting at there.
3 Likes
Whatâs your opinion of this flag?
Just the elements, mind you. Pay no attention to how it was used.
Why is Florida lumped in with those other jackasses? Granted, Floridaâs got a surplus of stupidity, and there are most definitely residents who still use the phrase âThe War of Northern Aggressionâ, but the state flag isnât in contention for being a symbol of racist hatred.
State flag adopted in 1861 (âFlag of Florida (1861)â by Fornax - Own work. Licensed under Public Domain via Wikimedia Commons):
Got some muskets and shit on there, but it hasnât been used since the horrors of the 1860s.
Current flag, adopted in 1900 (again, from Wikimedia Commons, but you get no linky):
If youâre worried about the crossed red bars, thatâs because the flag was adopted from the design of the Empire of Spain when it flew over the state back in the 1500s. And THAT old flag looks like this:
So SUCK IT, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, et.al.
1 Like
According to this (linked by the Graun)
Floridaâs flag is similar to Alabamaâs, consisting of a state seal over a red cross. The cross was added to the flag a few years after Alabama adopted its flag, at the suggestion of Governor Francis P. Fleming. Fleming had enlisted in the Confederate army in his youth, and some historians see his choice of the cross as an attempt to memorialize the confederacy.
And Alabamaâs:
The red cross of the Alabama flag, adopted in 1895, was designed to evoke the battle flag of the Alabama infantry in the Civil War. Thatâs according to a written account of the flagâs history given by the attorney general of Alabama in 1987.
Now, whether Florida really is trying to evoke âthe battle flag of the Alabama infantry in the Civil Warâ might be trickier.
3 Likes
I think lolipop was just being cute here. Weâre discussing state flags here, so you might lighten up a little. Iâm from bleedinâ Kansas, and probably no state full of white folks hates that traitor rag more than us. And donât knock lolipopâs state flag in this discussion, cuz West Virginia fuckin SECEDED from the confederacy. âMountaineers always freeâ, indeed.
Why was the confederate flag even allowed to be displayed in the first place? The Union won the civil war, unconditionally. Why would the government want to have symbols of sedition to continue to be displayed? Itâs like being ok with the WWII axis countries (read Germany) to display their flags as part of their ânational identityâ
Basically, the North wanted to end slavery, the South was willing to go to war over it, the North won, the South lost, slavery was abolished, the States were united, the Confederacy was eliminated. The flag should have been put into a museum as part of our history (200 years ago) and not taught as a point of pride and southern identity.
Kids are still being taught that the war isnât over, that the confederate views were right and justified. Even if you donât think you are racist, showing that flag says that you are ok with someone else being racist. Itâs just the same as an apartheid flag, or a swastika.
5 Likes
Agree totally with your conclusion. In re your opening questions, (if they werenât meant to be rhetorical), you need to read some history. Short answer, we won the war, the South won the âreconstructionâ.
1 Like
.svg#/media/File:Flag_of_Florida_(1861).svg){kind=link}