Did you see John Oliver this weekend?
Verily, it is baffling that the response to this massacre seems to be this sudden unquenchable desire to… take down a flag. Even John Stewart’s rather touching (and much circulated) piece on the Daily Show seemed weighted towards the flag and the street names.
Will they be removing copies of the Dukes of Hazard boxed set as well?
Interestingly, the elementary school I went to when I lived in Mississippi is apparently one of the 9 schools that the Atlantic article says are named after Jefferson Davis. While, I still live in the south in North Carolina, I thankfully no longer live in Mississippi. The neighborhood my mother lives in here in North Carolina has every single street named after confederate generals and war heroes. It’s all kind of fucked up, but the craziest thing to me is that what we know as the confederate flag was only ever flown as a battle flag and never officially recognized as a flag of the Confederate States of America.
Would you still be baffled if it were a flag with a white hood on it? Not everyone can look at the battle flag of a rebel nation that made slavery its cornerstone, since often used in opposition to civil rights movements, and see only the Dukes of Hazzard.
It’s not baffling to me.
So in response to this latest massacre, we should cry out yet again, and yet again just as uselessly, for more gun control?
Yes, guns are a problem, and many people are saying so yet again this time. But so is white supremacist murder and terrorism. And so is a general cultural environment that condones and even sometimes sanctions THAT problem.
This mass shooting differs from many others in that it was clearly motivated by white supremacist hate, and that hate has many sources and forms of support, including a racist and in some places ubiquitous flag.
If you find efforts to focus on the flag (efforts which are made by almost no one who doesn’t think guns are not also a problem), you’re the one who’s “baffling.”
Exactly. To many black observers, it’s a symbol of hatred, for them. And of terror.
[quote=“milliefink, post:25, topic:60266”]If you find efforts to focus on the flag (efforts which are made by almost no one who doesn’t think guns are not also a problem), you’re the one who’s “baffling.”[/quote]It’s right there in the post:
There was a gathering sense of unease already on Monday, a worry that the focus on removing the flag might provide a too-easy exit for leaders in South Carolina to declare victory and move on without grappling with deeper, systemic strains of racism in a state where the black poverty rate is nearly three times as high as the white rate; black incarcerations rates are nearly four times as high; black arrest rates are disproportionately high; and black high-school graduation rates lag white rates.
[quote=“milliefink, post:25, topic:60266”]This mass shooting differs from many others in that it was clearly motivated by white supremacist hate[/quote]I was not left with the impression that this mass shooting was particularly less motivated by mental illness than usual, or that other mass shootings were particularly less motivated by hate. But it could well be that I haven’t been following the story closely enough.
We’re so progressive we put oppressed people on our flag. The somewhat explicit threat of beheading is arguable.
Not just by hate. White supremacist hate.
Sure, but it is a focus on white supremacist hate. It’s a start on a problem that’s one example of what’s also exemplified by those other systemic problems. Yes, some might address this one form of racism and move on, but some might also be encouraged to go from this one to some of the others. And it’s not like leaders in South Carolina are already grappling mightily with other deep, systemic strains of racism.
Boxes with such typos are usually destroyed for insurance purposes.
Or copyright infringement.
California must be a pretty dangerous place. So many labels saying “…contains a chemical known to cause cancer in California”…
wow, you draw exactly like Matthew Inman.
By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under liberty
Because images of guns are just as bad as the real thing? Because symbols of racist hatred should be left as is, for reasons? Not sure what you’re getting at there.
What’s your opinion of this flag?
Just the elements, mind you. Pay no attention to how it was used.
Why is Florida lumped in with those other jackasses? Granted, Florida’s got a surplus of stupidity, and there are most definitely residents who still use the phrase “The War of Northern Aggression”, but the state flag isn’t in contention for being a symbol of racist hatred.
State flag adopted in 1861 (“Flag of Florida (1861)” by Fornax - Own work. Licensed under Public Domain via Wikimedia Commons):
Got some muskets and shit on there, but it hasn’t been used since the horrors of the 1860s.
Current flag, adopted in 1900 (again, from Wikimedia Commons, but you get no linky):
If you’re worried about the crossed red bars, that’s because the flag was adopted from the design of the Empire of Spain when it flew over the state back in the 1500s. And THAT old flag looks like this:
So SUCK IT, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, et.al.
According to this (linked by the Graun)
Florida’s flag is similar to Alabama’s, consisting of a state seal over a red cross. The cross was added to the flag a few years after Alabama adopted its flag, at the suggestion of Governor Francis P. Fleming. Fleming had enlisted in the Confederate army in his youth, and some historians see his choice of the cross as an attempt to memorialize the confederacy.
The red cross of the Alabama flag, adopted in 1895, was designed to evoke the battle flag of the Alabama infantry in the Civil War. That’s according to a written account of the flag’s history given by the attorney general of Alabama in 1987.
Now, whether Florida really is trying to evoke “the battle flag of the Alabama infantry in the Civil War” might be trickier.
I think lolipop was just being cute here. We’re discussing state flags here, so you might lighten up a little. I’m from bleedin’ Kansas, and probably no state full of white folks hates that traitor rag more than us. And don’t knock lolipop’s state flag in this discussion, cuz West Virginia fuckin SECEDED from the confederacy. “Mountaineers always free”, indeed.
Why was the confederate flag even allowed to be displayed in the first place? The Union won the civil war, unconditionally. Why would the government want to have symbols of sedition to continue to be displayed? It’s like being ok with the WWII axis countries (read Germany) to display their flags as part of their ‘national identity’
Basically, the North wanted to end slavery, the South was willing to go to war over it, the North won, the South lost, slavery was abolished, the States were united, the Confederacy was eliminated. The flag should have been put into a museum as part of our history (200 years ago) and not taught as a point of pride and southern identity.
Kids are still being taught that the war isn’t over, that the confederate views were right and justified. Even if you don’t think you are racist, showing that flag says that you are ok with someone else being racist. It’s just the same as an apartheid flag, or a swastika.
Agree totally with your conclusion. In re your opening questions, (if they weren’t meant to be rhetorical), you need to read some history. Short answer, we won the war, the South won the “reconstruction”.