Thanks, you got it exactly. I don’t care what the standard is, as long as there is one standard that everyone can agree to and isn’t controlled by any single corporation. If Tesla’s is that good, then declare it the standard and make it a public standard they don’t control so everyone can access it the same way, at the same costs, without having to go through Tesla’s games. I found the very idea Tesla feels it has the right to block you from the network if you’re rebuilding a damaged Tesla as disgusting corporate overreach and VERY bad for consumers. Could you imagine pulling into a gas pump only to find out you can’t put gas in your car until you pay Ford a huge fee to “re-license” the mustang you’ve rebuilt for use on their gas network? Insane. We are just at the very start of this transition, and such shenanigans are only going to get worse. Make a standard now, take “fuel” out of control of the corporations. They can focus on competing based on cars, not their control of the charging network.
but…but… that’s ENTIRELY REASONABLE!!! /s
Oh yeah. Totally. If they get their way, we will no longer buy cars, but merely borrow them from Tesla at a very high cost. It’s the postmodern version of planned obsolescence.
Works for me. 
I’m not aware of there being any federal mandate, no. Nonetheless it’s absurd to characterize Tesla’s connector as a “standard” any more than Apple’s Lightning connector is a “standard”. (And the objections to each have their parallels.)
The fact is that in the marketplace, CCS appears to have won, even absent regulation. Not that I’m arguing regulation would be a bad thing, it would be fine. Regulation would presumably have the effect of forcing Tesla to equip their own cars with CCS connectors, which is what you guys should be up in arms about. (I keep thinking they’re going to do it anyway, as they have in Europe, but here they’ve kind of painted themselves into a corner I guess.)
That was @cepheus42 whole point… that there is no standard which can be treated like a public utility…
No one did, rather that there should be a federally mandated standard that is not under the control of a private corporation.
We don’t know that, as this is still playing out. But the fact that other corporations have agreed on a standard shows how much we need some federal regulation and support on this issue. There are some things which should have federal regulation and oversight to force industry-wide cooperation. Being able to have a standard type of charging system for EVs that any car can access seems like one of those things if we are seriously going to give up gasoline powered cars for electric.
Why? Standardization works in favor of the consumer. I don’t give a shit if poor little rich boy has to play nice with his competitors. He SHOULD, in fact. I don’t really give a shit if he loses money because he refuses to think about the public good. Musk doesn’t really care about the public good - at least not as much as he cares about his own vanity and wealth.
I would love to have a car that runs on vegetable juice
Do I have your permission to be up in arms that (other than Model 3 and Y, as noted above) Tesla builds cars that can’t easily adapt into CCS charging systems, as well as locking other EV users out of their supercharger network (which received federal funding during the buildout phase)?
NO! YOu can only be mad that Elon can’t dictate things! /s
That would be cool, but not an especially cheap fuel source. A gallon of V8 costs about $8 or so from the grocery store.
I was this → ← close at one time. I was running E85, which is mostly fermented and distilled vegetable juice.
perhaps whey and old wine?
frugal/regal
https://magazine.astonmartin.com/people/green-giant-prince-charles-and-his-eco-friendly-db6
Thanks. I gave up the discussion after my last post since clearly I wasn’t able to articulate the point as clearly as you have here. Kudos.
The problem isn’t the connector on the car, because at least here Tesla hat an adapter for the CCS2 connector to charge. One could live with adapters. You buy a Made in Germany appliance with a SCHUKO plug and you can use it with a NEMA-6 to SCHUKO connector (if it works the same at 60Hz.
The problem with Tesla superchargers is that is only usable by Tesla and not by other manufacturers, and it’s actively blocking compatibility systems, as far I can understand.
So polite of you to ask, and yes you do, especially since that’s basically what I said to begin with! Although the 3 and Y can’t be easily adapted to CCS either, not per that link (which is for vaporware, I mean a forthcoming product), and not with real product either (at least, I don’t call $745 for a product that tops out at 80kW “easy”, although the linked product isn’t limited to the 3 and the Y, it claims to work across the product line).
Can you point me to a source for that, please? I’m not aware of any such federal funding and yes I did google it. That did point me to a lot of articles where The Elon is blowing some new smoke about how really for sure this time he will be letting others into his walled garden, in pursuit of some sweet new federal funds. As with all Elon statements, I’ll believe it when I see it.
I’m not a dogmatic free-marketeer, but how does the fact that the market is converging to a standard without federal intervention, show that we need federal intervention?
I mean, again, and I’m sorry it upsets you when I agree with you, I have no objection to a CCS (or, you know, whatever, I guess) mandate, I just have a hard time seeing how this is a hair-on-fire existential requirement given that it seems to be the asymptote the industry is approaching anyway.
Seems very helpful for us to get there, yes. I just don’t much care how we get there, as long as we do.
Speaking of things that are not helpful for the transition, another one is overblown claims of how much chaos there is in public charging. There is remarkably little chaos IRL. I daresay the “OMG the lack of standards!” thing verges on FUD.
I guess my statement wasn’t as clear to you as it seems to me. I’m agreeing with you. I’m saying I would prefer it if Teslas came with CCS (ideally natively, but at least the ability to use CCS as equal citizens). In fact, if that were the case, I’d argue that the drama about Tesla rebuilds, FrankenTeslas, etc, having a hard time accessing the Supercharger network would be moot, because they’d be able to access the public charging network regardless.
One has to piece it together from publicly available information and Tesla press conferences. So, take it with a grain of salt, when one draws the line between the subsidies and grants and Elon making shit up on stage at a presentation. But here’s a 2015 tally of the government subsidies and grants Musk’s companies have received (it mixes state and federal sources):
Oh. Sure, no question that Tesla (like many companies) has benefited from various government incentives, which seem to be having the desired effect of driving growth of alternative energy and EVs (yay, it’s great when policy actually works the way it was supposed to).
But AFAICT there’s no reason to believe the Supercharger network benefited directly from incentives to build it out. If it had, that’d be, IMO, a decent argument for saying they should open it up. And indeed that’s what the most recent Elon smoke-blowing is about: saying he’s going to open it up (with a loud subtext of “so that I can access some sweet federal grants”).
Snark aside, again, if that does come to pass it will be exactly a case of federal incentives having the desired outcome: push some grants at Tesla to expand their network, in exchange get access to the entire pre-existing network as well. Pretty good leverage there; money well spent, on the part of the feds, I’d say. (But I’ll believe it when I see it.)
Because corporations can’t be trusted? I’d thought we’d all learned that by now? Have they not undermined society enough for your tastes? Because they have to mine.
Okay. But we need to be concerned about government regulation… why?
Just because something seems doesn’t mean it will, while if it’s a regulatory mandate, we know it will.
And it’s hair-on-fire because we’re burning the fucking planet down around our ears…
Musk is famously stubborn and willing to break with industry standards because he believes he’s some sort of disruptive “hero” who is blazing a trail. but he’s just a rich asshole who only cares about his own vanity and wealth. Assuming he’ll fall in line because the rest of the industry that he is seeking to disrupt is foolish.
If you think my position is that we do need to be concerned about it, you’re not reading very carefully (or I’m not writing very carefully, always a possibility). I disagree with you about the criticality of it, but there’s no sense in continuing to go around on it, we simply disagree.
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