She isn’t advocating either. Thanks for the lesson though.
Stop making up “facts.”
Did Bernie support the Iraq War? No. Did she? Of course. She votes for every war.
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You’re right, I left out her flip-flopping when her longterm stances became politically unviable and she publicly supported what she had condemned forever (like gay marriage).
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Are you suggesting that I am Astroturfing for the Clinton campaign? The hate that I see seems pretty real and familiar. I am busy and not invested in either Sanders or Clinton, but only one has supporters that I avoid at parties and dinners.
For the record, I voted for Nader in 2000. I didn’t think Gore could lose to the idiot from Texas. Defeating Trump is more important than anything else. Plus, I actually think Sanders is just a different centrist mix than Clinton. Not sure who would be better. It would be nice to have somebody under the age of 60 as an option.
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I hope this ends peacefully.
I didn’t mean to imply Sanders is one to incite violence, although he has gone on record to say some of his losses were a conspiracy of Clinton campaign, which definitely had me concerned. As far as I know, these are the same rules used in 2008, and even though Hillary was expected to win that nomination, we’ve had the first black president for the last eight years, and she was closer to beating him than Sanders is to beat Clinton. At some point, you have to heal this rift.
I just want the most united front possible against the first possible fascist presidency in the history of the country. Anything that gets in the way of that scares the shit out of me.
No, I’m saying the meme of “those mean bernie bros” was wholly constructed by the Clinton campaign and fed to the media and web sites, just like they did for Obama in 2008. It is a narrative that serves to marginalize people who support her opponent.
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Before or after Trump sends his supporters out to fight if he loses?
Or do you really think Sanders has brownshirts (oh, the irony) fighting for him?
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[quote=“enso, post:41, topic:79253”]
Is she advocating for free college for citizens, for example? How about a universal minimum wage (a living one) or health care for all citizens?
[/quote]1. Free-ish. (A sliding scale, so rich families still pay)
2. Bernie isn’t advocating that.
3. Yes.
[quote=“enso, post:41, topic:79253”]You’re right, I left out her flip-flopping when her longterm stances became politically unviable and she publicly supported what she had condemned forever (like gay marriage).[/quote]All politicians flip flop based on public opinion, including Bernie. You haven’t seen him out there recently talking about how immigrants drive down wages, have you? No, because he, along with the labor movement, stopped being nativist pricks about it years ago.
You want politicians to flip flop. It’s a good thing. It means they’re listening to their constituents.
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They must have orchestrated the strategy with those annoying parents at daycare then. And my lyft driver. The Clinton campaign certainly has a sophisticated ground game to create negative personal attacks on Clinton. Oh wait…
I don’t and I’m never voting for another Clinton. So ah well.
[quote=“Quinquennial, post:45, topic:79253”]
I hope this ends peacefully.
[/quote]I’m pretty sure it will. Bernie’s a bit cranky, but he’s a good guy and I don’t think he’s gonna just blow everything up and hand it to Trump out of spite.
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The fact that a large chunk of America neither trusts nor likes her (I never have and I’m a lefty) isn’t because of some Sanders campaign. It is because she seems like a bought and sold shill lawyer who works on the side of business, not normal people. I’m still waiting for transcripts of her Goldman Sachs speeches, personally.
Too bad the Dems didn’t put up Elizabeth Warren instead of deciding it was Clinton’s turn.
I’m worked up because we passed on having an even somewhat progressive candidate willing to engage in real change and just took the “business as usual” party machine candidate whose turn it was. I’ll be very unsurprised if the angry, out of work people in less well to do parts of the country don’t hand the election to Trump simply because he isn’t business as usual and the Dems will look at each other and wonder how it happened.
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So it’s not a Clinton campaign strategy and just make believe in the media? Is this flip flopping? It seems like some folks are irrational when it comes to the Clintons.
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The meme of “Bernies Bros” is a Clinton strategy. The fact that a lot of people hate and/or dislike or distrust her is not.
Reading comprehension, much? Sophistry isn’t going to get you far here.
I believe that applies to your first response.
[quote=“enso, post:52, topic:79253”]
The fact that a large chunk of America neither trusts nor likes her (I never have and I’m a lefty) isn’t because of some Sanders campaign. It is because she seems like a bought and sold shill lawyer who works on the side of business, not normal people
[/quote]She was significantly more popular than Obama when she started the campaign. Her approval only dropped after Bernie got in, started attacking her, and only with his supporters and the GOP.
[quote=“enso, post:52, topic:79253”]Too bad the Dems didn’t put up Elizabeth Warren instead of deciding it was Clinton’s turn.[/quote]The party doesn’t “put people up”. A lot of progressives (including me) tried to get Warren to run, and she could could have gotten in, just like Bernie, but she decided she didn’t want to.
[quote=“enso, post:52, topic:79253”] I’ll be very unsurprised if the angry, out of work people in less well to do parts of the country don’t hand the election to Trump simply because he isn’t business as usual and the Dems will look at each other and wonder how it happened.[/quote]The angry voters are on the right, and they’re angry about race, not the economy. If there had been any significant number of people like that on the left, Bernie might have won.
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I think you’re in for a surprise. I know a lot of angry voters here in California and they’re largely progressives that see Clinton as a center right “default” candidate that won’t change a damn thing. A lot of them will hold their nose (again) to vote for her because of Trump but not all.
You really think the only really angry people right now in America are racist, right wing, whites? Really? You think it is just about race and not economics or class?
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[quote=“enso, post:57, topic:79253”]
You really think the only really angry people right now in America are racist, right wing, whites? Really?
[/quote]There are some angry racist left-wing whites too. White people in general are just having a meltdown over the growing political power of minorities.
RE: The white suicide/mortality stories- it’s not white men, it’s white women, mostly southern women. And their mortality rates are going up even as their incomes have almost doubled over the last 40 years. I don’t know exactly what’s happening with them, but I know it’s not the economy.
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Yeah, that explains it all. All the anger is due to…racism. It isn’t because of the hollowing out of the middle class for whites (and yes, it hit the Black community decades before, I know), the loss of jobs, even the hope of jobs, the loss of their life savings in 2008 never to return (along with the jobs that never came back) and the general hopelessness that is causing many people to either drink/drug themselves to death or to turn to wannabe Hitlers like Trump.
Ah, so your knowledge is superior to every article or study on it that contradicts what you’re saying. Check. I get it.
I guess we can revisit this when Clinton loses to Trump.
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You have a good night. I’m going to go read a book for an hour or two before bed, secure in the knowledge that no matter what happens in the election, my finances and job situation will be just fine as a Silicon Valley white male engineer. I don’t even have to care, right?
I mean, you’ve already implicitly called me a racist since I’m white and I’m angry about the current political situation. Thanks for that.
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The real problem is that there is little that Sanders, Trump, or Clinton can do to fix a generations long loss of labor power and globalization. Sanders gets points for talking about it, but without dragging Congress along I don’t see those types of reforms happening in the first half of this century. More than likely we need a new model to fix things as the old labor movements were founded in a protectionist era and lost power to globalization. (deregulation too) I have not yet heard a solution to our current problems. CEO wage caps, basic income, demarchy, universal workers rights enforced by trade bans and more would be a start.
