You did not. That describes a behaviour that operates in direct opposition to his supposed values. I’m open to suggestions of ways to point out his hypocrisy that does not involve pointing out his hypocritical behaviour (in this case, a “family values” politician who promulgates anti-LGBTQ policies frequenting male sex workers).
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Its damaging hypocrisy.
Like a neo-nazi who is actually Jewish or this guy
I feel no need to give Graham the kind of courtesy and civility that he denied others.
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Are you?
“It’s OK when…”
No. It. Fucking. Isn’t.
Quit trying to defend it.
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A suggestion? If you have to go there, just call it what it is: hypocrisy. He’s a hypocritical bigot.
But that’s so far down his list of negative attributes, it’s below the fold.
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Again, I’m fine with outing people when it identifies them as a kapo and hypocrite. Same goes for the self-hating Jew Stephen Miller, same should have gone for self-hating Jew and self-hating gay man Roy Cohn (all too many other examples). These scumbags are doing real damage, and I’m very comfortable throwing them to whatever wolves will have them if it takes them out of power.
That’s fine. And when I’m asked to describe why I call him that…?
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Then you’ve learned nothing here.
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What level of description or explanation would satisfy someone asking?
I’ll agree with that. I’ve listened, but I disagree.
I say “Lindsey Graham is a hypocritical bigot when it comes to LGBTQ rights” in a debate with a right-winger. Right-winger says “you liberals may think he’s a bigot, but how is he a hypocrite?”
My answer [excluding discussion of his frequenting of male prositutes] should be…?
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I’m sticking with Lindsey is an asshole. Covers a lot of bases.
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Disengage, because there’s no positive outcome in continuing that conversation. If they don’t get what you’re saying, there’s no path forward.
I mean, they’re either being intentionally obtuse or they genuinely don’t know. Either way, there’s no positive outcome. Either they don’t care or they don’t know and you’d be outing LG.
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So you will continue with the homophobia, consistently referencing “self-hating Jews”, and ignore the woman trying to point out where you could do better?
Wow.
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By those terms there’s no point in starting that conversation, the resulting silence conceding that Lindsey Graham is not a hypocrite and that he actually practises what he preaches.
If it’s the latter, it costs him their vote because of their own sh*tty values. I’m good with that.
Talking about self-hating Jews (e.g. Stephen Miller) is not an expression of anti-Semitism, and talking about self-hating gay men (e.g. Lindsey Graham) is not an expression of homophobia. Both are discussing actual phenomena, ones that can result in damage to society when a powerful self-hating individual tries to inflict that on others.
I’ve listened to you but I disagree. Kapos don’t get any quarter from me.
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Except that isnt what you are doing and in continuing to stick to your guns here you have managed to show you’re fine with bigotry if it suits your case and in wanting to shout ineffectual slurs you agree are homophobic at a politician we all agree is a hypocrite you’ve managed to turn this entire thread from Lindsey Graham’s hypocrisy to your own.
I’m out. Wallow in it. I know what you are now.
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Maybe. But I’ve had similar conversations that just stick to why he’s evil and what he’s done to cause damage to the country, and there was no need to go into who he is as a person, rather than what he’s done.
ETA: Because if the person you’re talking with doesn’t get that homophobia is itself wrong, regardless of the source, it’s not going to suddenly click for them that homophobia is wrong because LG is gay.
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But objection to your use of " Lady G" isnt about whatever effect it has on Graham himself. It’s about its more general deleterious effects. Which, gosh for some reason, you’re having a hard time acknowledging as a good reason not to use homophobic schoolyard slurs.
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I’m fine with turning bigotry against bigots, yes. I haven’t shouted one ineffectual slur, because in general I don’t personally think identifying an individual who is gay and/or who frequents sex workers is defaming them. In the vast majority of cases I wouldn’t bother to bring it up about someone at all, because who cares. But with kapos and powerful hypocrites, I always will.
You know I respect you and am glad to discuss this privately. But I am standing by my position that exposing powerful hypocrites whose policies do real damage is ok.
Which is why I said above that I don’t mind dropping it, even though Graham and his supporters probably hate it and even though it comes from a specific gay subculture and is not intended by them to be a slur. That said, I have no problem outing him – not as a gay man but as a hypocrite.
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You clearly don’t and I’ve no wish to let you hide this argument.
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They get none from me either, though I tend to avoid using the same slurs that are used to persecute the self hating.
Admittedly, I’m not always successful; as I am in a constant state of reprogramming from how I’ve been socialized since birth, and that’s hard work.
But I keep trying, regardless.
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Do we also want to stigmatize sex work, or those who partake in it? Is that a behavior we want to start calling people out for?
I don’t have any answers for you. I wish I did, but I don’t, beyond focusing more on criticizing actions, not identity. Maybe we need to let go of the hypocrisy angle and just point out that LG is an asshole who actively pursues horrible policies that hurt people.
Did I suggest that? No, I didn’t. But there’s more than one way to accomplish that, and maybe, just maybe, we should choose those which don’t cause unintended damage to people who aren’t the target… especially after being repeatedly called out on it.
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Me, too, but my attitude has changed in (looks at thread side bar) about 20 posts. So it’s possible.
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