Careful study reveals that low testosterone is almost nonexistent and that taking T has almost no health benefits

boing
41

The 1g of protein per pound of weight is pretty much strictly for weightlifting, because building the muscle mass (vegetarian or not) simply requires it to hit the 2-3 times weight major lifts. Anyone telling you to do it otherwise ain’t no health professional.

And even then, it’s 1g per pound of your healthy weight range, so for a normal man it’s still a relatively normal amount of protein; like if 180 lbs is a healthy weight, that’s basically a normal American diet’s level of protein. My family doesn’t eat a lot of meat so now that I’m back to training I use whey, but I am giant and should have around 200-220g of protein when weight training. Calories matter so much more, and the healthy calories even more.

And this is coming from someone who briefly went on testosterone supplementation because of a petuitary distinction and always has low testosterone - and who never really had issues weightlifting once I was able to peel away the “pay to fail” industry crap. I never believed low testosterone contributes as much as advertised to fitness results or overall health.

1 Like
42

Neither of those things work that way. The two are not in competition, and I have never heard from an endocrinologist that claims estrogen levels are related to testosterone levels in your body. Your body boosts testosterone production if your spouse goes out of town, let alone if your diet gives it a reason to.

1 Like
43

Testosterone is mostly prescribed as a gel.

1 Like
44

I’m on sublingual estradiol right now, myself, but one reason many trans women choose injections is cycling. I basically cycle daily; in the morning don’t even look at me until I get my E in me. Once that happens I’m chipper af. Those on injections are usually on a weekly cycle, but since there’s much more to deal with the injection day is not uncommonly referred to as weepy day because there’s a rush of E in their system.

As far as orally vs transdermal though, we don’t have great science; trans visibility is just starting to be a big thing, and right now it’s impossible to get funding for trans issues on a US federal level, and there just is not a hell of a lot of well-done science on the subject. Observationally most of the girls I’ve known have better levels with transdermal methods over orally, so it’s pretty much always used orally these days. I can think of a lot of potential but totally hypothetical reasons it’s that way.

OMG I share that feeling so much. :slight_smile:

Hm, good to know. I haven’t done enough research into what trans-masc folks need to do (researching my own situation takes enough of my spoons as it is.)

omg right, not only are testosterone’s restrictions a pain in the ass, but these fuckheads being fuckheads are ruining it for those who need it. Trans-feminine folks are also having a lot of trouble right now because estradiol valerate is getting increasingly hard to come by (the most common and effective injectable version) because the main manufacturer has just stopped making it with no reason given.

3 Likes
45

I do not have cool quote skills, but you have said some really cool things so bear with me.

Trans men usually do weekly shots, too. I haven’t had too big an issue, but I do jokingly tell folks I am at war with Thursdays because my shots are on Fridays. Some trans guys have a big issue with that, and end up doing shots twice a week, or switching to patches to avoid the emotional ride. I find it’s a YMMV thing on how hard that cycle hits. I was lucky in that it doesn’t hit me too hard if I make sure to sleep, eat, and be careful.

Do sublingual meds confer more of a benefit? I hadn’t hear of sublingual Estradiol before. Although my wife hates the Spiro more. She said said she burble minty sparkles, and I had to wonder if that was trans lady magic or something. I just got stinky sweat with testosterone. Ha!

I do agree, we have crap all science on this. I feel so much of what we do is still out of the DIY folks that pioneered a lot of this. I have gone through a few doctors at this point, and often have to do the education for them, because while willing to prescribe, they have never been up on the details.

This has been eye opening for me too watch my wife start her transition, because while I knew things are split along gender lines for the community, I hadn’t realized by just how much. I spend my time in the trans masc side of the divide, and now with her transitioning I am learning so much. It’s definitely cool.

I had always been a little jealous of you gals, because your HRT isn’t a controlled substance. Testosterone isn’t something I can just get in another country. (Not that I am really thinking of getting my meds cheaper in Mexico while down there. . . . ) Whereas estrogen has less of a risk of being fake down there.

It’s also pretty eye opening that the manufacturers just stopped making estradiol validate. I mean, I guess they didn’t see enough profit? That’s crazy. I know Testosterone will always be manufactured because of it’s controlled coveted status, at least, even if it has shortages due to middle aged man children worrying about losing their youth.

2 Likes
46

Found this on NCBI “The pros and cons of phytoestrogens”, 2010

Good For You Overstated

…considered endocrine disruptors, indicating that they have the potential to cause adverse health effects…

A growing body of work now cautions that the health benefits frequently attributed to soy may be overstated…

…soy is found in upwards of 60% of processed foods

INTERFERENCE WITH TESTOSTERONE

… the timing of puberty, the ability to produce viable, fertile offspring, sex specific behavior, premature reproductive senescence and compromised fertility.

Phytoestrogens can also manipulate steroid biosynthesis and transport by, for example, stimulating hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) synthesis in liver cells [5], and competitively displacing either 17ß-estradiol or testosterone from plasma SHBG [Xenoestrogen interaction with human sex hormone-binding globulin (hSHBG).].

Male cynomolgus monkeys fed soy protein isolate containing 1.88 mg isoflavones/g protein over 18 months demonstrated higher frequencies of intense aggressive (67% higher) and submissive (203% higher) behaviors…[Increased aggressive behavior and decreased affiliative behavior in adult male monkeys after long-term consumption of diets rich in soy protein and isoflavones.]

I left out all the negative stuff concerning female development. However the overall effect is to stunt the feminizing of females as well as stunting the masculinizing of males as these phytoestrogens look similar to estrogen to the body but antagonize development rather than improve it.

POSSIBLY UNRELATED, BUT YIKES

Among men, sperm counts in the United States and Europe appear to have declined by roughly half over the past 50 years [270]… Another study showed that infant boys born to vegetarian mothers had increased incidence of hypospadias (malformation of the male external genitalia) [186] suggesting that dietary components (perhaps phytoestrogens) cross the placenta and cause adverse effects on the developing fetus.

It is not true that ingesting soy reduces testosterone but it has a number of hormone disrupting effects that limit the effect or confuse testosterone. Since the 1999 FDA ruling that soy is good for you there is not much data on the long term effects of soy isoflavones and phytoestrogen on men.

Though, it could be argued that there is too limited information to say that soy is bad for you but the detail of benefits seen are mostly to a few select groups for existing health conditions.

I will avoid soy, thank you very much. YMMV.

2 Likes
47

I’m giving him a like just for finding the medical journal article and reading the whole thing. It’s a bigun’.

Until it was re-formulated to be less trans-fatty, Crisco was half soy and half cottonseed oil. I drop that little nugget; you decide what to think of it!

1 Like
48

Far as I know, soy is a large component of the common Japanese diet. Seems that men generally get along just fine there, and more healthily than the average western man.

6 Likes
49

You do realize the conclusion of the journal is that women who are breastfeeding or pregnant and infants should be careful not to eat too many soy products, and that it’s beneficial to men and women to prevent heart disease, right?

5 Likes
50

I have to use the small and very narrow sample size of my family for my hypothesis. The best way to describe us would be two bloodlines from two different hemispheres met at a frat party - and duplicated a lot of dumb genes. I look at one of my older siblings, and I see what happens if I ate 2 out of 3 meals through a drive-thru window or theme restaurant and never worked out. We look the same from the neck down…EXACTLY the same. Some of my family lift weights like crazy, trying (fruitlessly) to get swole. The best we can achieve is this guy:
image

If you choose to exercise merely moderately, you will look like Jon Lovitz. …even if you’re female.
image

How much of the ‘low testosterone’ is just dissatisfaction with a hereditary condition - say, feeling cheated that you don’t look like Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson, even though NO ONE in your gene pool looks like him?
image

2 Likes
51

No. That is not the conclusion. The author suggests moderation due to limited data.

Finally, the relative importance of the soy protein itself, compared to the isoflavones, on health outcomes such as lipid levels, reduced risk of carcinogenesis, and fracture risk must be resolved.

“Must be resolved” because these are still unknown, which is why the study calls benefits overstated.

The study goes into the effects on testosterone… and whether these effects are permanent. It’s up a bit from the bottom.

52

You’re over-interpreting that. If you’ve read more than a couple scholarly articles, you’d recognize this is how they always end the conclusion section of their paper, so that they can get a grant to study more.

2 Likes
53

OK, maybe “unknown” is too strong.

Perhaps “unproven” is better. At least with a a least more than one study.

54

For a typical consumer, alarm over soy products is likely unnecessary but so is the belief that a soy-rich diet will alleviate all ills. Women who are pregnant, nursing, or attempting to become pregnant should use soy foods with caution and be aware that soy formula may not be the best option for their babies. Older individuals, especially those with high cholesterol, may experience modest benefits including improved bone and cardiovascular health, and perhaps a decreased risk of carcinogenesis. Moderation is likely key and the incorporation of real foods, as opposed to supplements or processed foods to which soy protein is added, is probably essential for maximizing health benefits. Finally, the relative importance of the soy protein itself, compared to the isoflavones, on health outcomes such as lipid levels, reduced risk of carcinogenesis, and fracture risk must be resolved

Yes, that’s literally the conclusion - your overreaction is literally advised against in the conclusion.

5 Likes
55

I have heard him referred to as a “Dick-less SOB”, so that would explain where the dick went!

2 Likes
56

But only if you have a Boba Fett-ish… :joy:

9 Likes
57

mine is prescribed as an injectable.

image

1 Like
58

The gels supposedly mean more risk when you come in physical contact with others, but delivers a better controlled dose. If I did it again with having a toddler I would automatically be given the shots now.

Just going by personal experience with doctors, though the last time I took testosterone was when I started having sleep apnea and they thought it was the issue I had at 19 again at 29 at first… so like 4 years ago or more.

59

If I actually ate it and if I worked out I have no doubt.

1 Like
60

This is an extraordinarily misleading headline, and I can only assume all the snarky comments are from people who did not read or failed to understand the linked article. The study referenced was performed on a random selection of men over the age of 65 whose testosterone levels had not been measured prior to the study.

Here’s what that means: “Careful study reveals that low testosterone is almost nonexistent” is inaccurate. What the study revealed was that self-reported problems with sexual performance, memory and fitness in men over 65 was not positively correlated with low testosterone (15% of those studied had low T). “…and that taking T has almost no health benefits” is also inaccurate. What the study revealed was that men over 65 showed no improvement to these common age-related problems. That’s important to specify, because a guy who can’t get an erection at 30 and a guy who can’t get an erection at 70 are likely experiencing that issue for very different reasons.

Again, there’s nothing wrong with the study itself, but this is a classic example of a headline so clickbaity that it completely misconstrues the results of the study it’s referencing.

2 Likes