There is still a Purgatory. If you want a list of what the Catholic Church believes you can read it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, here at the Holy See. In the Catechism are references to the various Councils and church documents for clarification. It is kind of a long read.
None of these beliefs are mysteries in the sense that they aren’t written down somewhere. Some of it them are mysteries in the sense that the ineffable divine can sometimes not be understood by human beings but must just be excepted on faith. (Should you choose to do so.)
Well, that idea might already be being done, but you could come out with credit/debit collection plates/boxes offering bowls.
After all, 10-15% of your earnings -before- taxes is a lot of cash to be carrying around these days with roadside police search and seizures. And CC processing is a percentage game that keeps on paying…
Is 'merica so only a matter of time before you can super size.
Yeah, this product is just grape juice, and I seriously doubt that it is being used in any catholic church. They have much more tightly controlled supply channels and everything has to be Vatican approved. I’d imagine this gets the most use in mega-churches in the south of the USA, especially the ones that televangelize. In catholic churches you go forward, in mega-baptist churches they pass it out and thousands in the audience makes this logistically appealing.
ah so that explains the virgin birth…she was ineffable! (i kid)
True, of course. I know from being Anglican myself for a while. Maybe “non-liturgical tradition”? But there might be liturgies out there that could work with these things, or evangelical churches that call their Sunday service a “liturgy”.
One of the manufacturers claimed it was good for taking communion to shut-ins and the hospitalized. Do you know if the Western churches have consecration prayers that could be used with these, separately from a full liturgy? I know the Orthodox don’t.
Honestly I wouldn’t know anything that specific, though I sort of get that impression from sensationalized stories of black masses. Like the one running around a few weeks ago. Sounds like the host in question there was claimed to have been concreted outside the context of a communion ritual. I think it’d be rather hard to get an intact host from the priest during or immediately after the initial blessing that’s part of the service. I’m also reasonably sure there are multiple communion rituals in the western Catholic tradition (which includes the Episcopalians, and I think Lutherans too) that involve consecrated host outside the context of formal mass. Like last rights, the sick and wounded, even exorcism, military situations. So I’ve always assumed so.
Beyond that there’s a lot of mostly Evangelical/non-denominational/born-again type sects, especially in the US, that don’t necessarily require any sort of formal training or recognition for clergy. And don’t have such highly formal or ritualized liturgy (in the general sense). A lot of those groups tend to go with grape juice rather than wine, and individually portioned communion distributed on trays by deacons or the like. Its the whole Mega Church thing you got 10,000 people getting communion from 45 church officials of some sort. The whole thing bless in one fell swoop from the central podium or before hand. I attended one of these once. It was really weird, basically ‘and now its time for communion’ and a bunch of guys in suits showed up with pre-portioned presumably pre-blessed grape juice cups. There was no wafer involved at all. Presumably that’s the market for these things, I don’t know that they work in any other context.
Anyway, when I saw the photo my first thought was that it was some kind of ironic modern art project. I still kind of suspect that it started out that way until someone else decided to take it seriously.
EDIT: See also the McPassion Meal video, which has been kept off Youtube et al. for some cryptic reason, but which is still easily found via a Google search.
Mustum, which is grape juice that’s barely started to ferment and then stopped (so still meets the technical definition of wine) or freshly pressed juice is allowed, but I believe it needs special permission in cases of necessity. Pasteurized is right out, so no juice-boxes.
Recovering alcoholics would be a good example of a case where it could be used.
I was actually referring to the Catechism, albeit from memory, but it seems wikipedia backs me up a bit on searching.
Purgatory used to be, according to the Catholic Church, an actual, literal place you went. Recently they’ve finaggled it a bit, saying instead that purgatory is a “state of being”, rather than a place. Although to my knowledge, Hell is totally still officially [a real place where you will be sent at the first sign of defiance][1].
I also believe they changed the rules of who ends up in purgatory to be more lenient? The one part I seem to recall was people didn’t like the idea of unbaptized children being denied entry into heaven, as they never really had a chance to sin and it seems like a pretty dick move to place them into limbo just because of the concept of “original sin”.
My point is this stuff shifts over time - sometimes glacially slowly, but even barnacles do sometimes have to change their grip to survive in a changing world.
[1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKQklLCvcUg&t=4m5s
Catholics are encouraged but not required specifically to receive both the bread and wine for Communion. So an alcoholic could refrain. It is a bigger issue for Catholic priests since the wine must contain alcohol.
There is so bigger issue for people with celiacs disease since the hosts must be made from wheat. People can refrain for health reasons and do a spiritual communion.
Why all these rules, you ask? Because the Last Supper was a Passover meal and that is what Jesus used. Also, if a lot of people think about something for two thousand years, you will get a very complete answer.
You are technically correct, which is the best type of correct.
Purgatory wasn’t a place until those medieval Christians got a little too fervent. Thus it has returned to a state of being. Where are you when experiencing this state? Not in Heaven and not in Hell, the rest is left as an exercise for the seminary student.
Cool, thanks. My own journey started out at the evangelical end of things, though it wasn’t nearly as bonkers as some of the stuff I see in the US. So I’m very familiar with the little plastic cups and pre-cubed bread. I don’t think these packs would fly at the churches I went to. Our pastor did read the expected gospel passages. But it was never called a blessing or considered necessary since it’s not regarded as sacramental. It didn’t need to be a pastor, either.
As far as the recent black mass thing, goes. I thought it was reserved communion that was stolen, meaning it had been consecrated at a mass earlier that week. Of course, I suppose its possible for anyone to claim that their own rituals accomplish the same thing as a legit mass. But it’s much more offensive to desecrate something accepted as genuine by an actual Christian. And I assume that’s what a black mass is going for.
I’ve known a few recovering alcoholics who would still drink the wine. Regular alcohol could never be considered as holy, so for them, communion is a special case that they are able to keep very distinct in their mind. They were doing very well with their programs, their sponsors/supporters all knew about the exception, and no one felt a need to qualify their abstention milestones.
(i kid)