On the other hand, I think there’s value in pointing out fascists as, well, dorks.
Fascism has a certain dark mystique which is a big part of its appeal, and puncturing that mystique by showing the hollowness of all the bluster about innate superiority and so on, calling them out as petty and insecure men who commit awful crimes out of hate, makes it harder for them to gain followers and power.
OMOV. (Our Mileage Obviously Varies!)
Maybe, but I’d argue we risk not taking them seriously enough.
But they also embrace the idea that the rest of us are too “inferior” to “get it”. They like the exclusive quality that appeals to some young people, which is why youth has always been an important recruiting pool for fascist movements. You can see that right back to the 20s and well into the current era. Pitching yourselves as having this outsider quality that the “normies” just don’t understand has always brought in some people… Fashion is part of that, too. Again, look at racist skinheads.
If we’re just gonna focus on how people dress, and whether or not they have a dorky face, how is that helping to address the racism that emanates from the mainstream into this fringe group that seeks to take that to the extremes by appealing to an outsider, but insider mentality.
Well yes, the violent racism is the problem, but not the only matter of interest here. Another is the way that some people find fascist fashion and regalia seductive and alluring, which means this fascist probably wouldn’t have gotten half as far up the Proud Boy foodchain without such a disguise.
For sure, and this thread is about a fascist context, not a punk one. I don’t think anyone here is confused about that.
That’s not how I read the comment that started off this fashion subthread. I read it as a comment on how fascist dudes can use regalia to cover up their orherwise unimpressive (to Nazis) features, not as a derogatory comment on what a dork or whatever this dude looks like. Not as a minimizing comment, but instead as one on another aspect of this dude’s life as a Proud Boy.
Indeed! But we’re not all here to discuss and toss in observations about only that which worries us most.
Who said that’s all we’re gonna focus on? Seems to me you’re the one who’s declaring what should and shouldn’t be discussed here, no?
They really do. So I find it richly ironic, and worthy of ridicule, that the very leader himself apparently had to do something akin to Nazi cosplay to get taken seriously by his fellow fascists.
But yes, as you said, YMMV!
What was he disguising though? He was just dressing the part… I don’t think it “hid” his ethnicity, as for them, it was an added bonus, because they saw that as a bonus for them - that even “those people” agree with their ideology. They can also point to him as “proving” that those that call them racists are wrong…
My point is that there is overlap. You often hear people on the far right claim that they are the “only real counter-culture” that exists anymore, which is of course bullshit. Groups like this likely pull from counter-cultural spaces like punk (much as white power groups did in the 80s/90s). It’s long been seen as an effective strategy to appeal to those interested in counterculture to boost numbers. The context isn’t as divorced as people believe, I’d argue.
Yet they are often using language like that to dunk on their perceived enemies, too. I think that dismissing him in that way simply moves our focus to something that doesn’t matter.
I think that’s important when something might overshadow the critical issue at hand, though. We do this all the time here - when someone throws out a comment that distracts from the danger posed by a particular person.
I don’t think that’s what was happening - it’s a case of group allegiance via a sort of uniform. Whether or not he was a leader probably rested on other things - like his adherence to their political views, including an embrace of political violence as a means to an end. The whole group dressed in that manner as a means of instilling camaraderie and order within their ranks.
Yeah… Fascism is shallow. Notably shallow really…
word.
Shallow like a kiddie pool.
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.
My last comment on this.
I make a point about toxic masculinity (this is what I’ve actually been talking about, if anyone really cares) and its connection to violent fascist movements is not minor, in my mind. We can all talk the big talk about how big evil is evil. But what are we going to do about it after the violence has been done? Big evil starts with little(r) evil, and we need to be aware of all its roots so we can work on them before people like this get radicalized and go off.
Much of the modern fascist movement (possibly all of them, but I’m no historian) seems to draw much of its power by hyping up these two-dimensional masculine ideals. We can’t do anything meaningful about these asshats unless we recognize that the proto-fascist men-should-be-manly types are actually the ones we have to pay attention to: they’re the Proud Boys’ farm team.
Who was Tarrio before he donned the costume? I’m betting he felt like he wasn’t being respected by more manly types, and rather than recognize that he didn’t have to pander to the bros and could instead use his gifts in a real way and gain self-respect, he put on the costume and tried to impress them. See where that got us all.
It annoys me that someone misrepresents what I said, making up all kinds of things that weren’t there, then sets up these strawman arguments so as to fight me on them. To wit, it has been inferred that I meant something along the lines of:
He’s just s dork, so we can just laugh at him and not worry so much about what he’s done
It has been implied that I was:
dismissing him in that way
and that I was:
saying he’s a dork.
NONE of this is what I said, or what I meant, and I challenge anyone to actually quote me to back up this interpretation. I’m not dismissing him, or fascism, I didn’t say he was a dork, I don’t ‘not worry so much about what he’s done.’
Now that we’ve covered what some people insist I meant, I’ll lay out in no uncertain terms what I ACTUALLY MEANT, for the very last time:
I don’t like Proud Boys, and I’m glad he’s going to jail, the longer the better. Fascism is bad. Toxic masculinity is bad, and it feeds into fascism, a pipeline which is also bad. I’m not actually more disturbed by sartorial choices than by attempted coups. Allow me to state for the record: Fascism is worse than wearing sunglasses all the time.
I believe that the relationship between toxic masculinity and fascist movements is a valid observation, and important. You may not be able to tell that I think it’s important, you may not agree that it’s important, but I think it’s important, if that’s okay with you.
I’m gratified that some commenters genuinely understood what I was trying to say (at least when I laid it out in my second comment). It’s a comfort to know I haven’t entirely lost the ability to communicate intelligibly.
To those who don’t understand me, or who think that I didn’t say enough about fascism (one more time: fascism is very bad!), I apologize for the lack of clarity.
For those who think I said too much about sunglasses, baseball caps and dorks, well, you have a point and I respectfully withdraw from this conversation which is clearly too sophisticated and serious for someone as shallow as myself.
ETA: even more context, because there can never be too much
Running a chicken farm and getting convicted for selling stolen diabetic test strips, IIRC.
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