If you vote for Trump, then screw you

Hillary maintained high approval ratings while she was First Lady, while she was Senator, and even higher while she was Secretary of State. She only gets the hate when she’s actually running for a job. I think she’s been a victim of largely unconsciouis, sexist bias against women showing ambition, and that she’s been much more harshly judged during her campaigns for doing things that would generally be accepted as politics-as-usual for a male candidate.

It will be interesting to see where her ratings go in office, should she win - and I sincerely hope she does.

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Pfff. Trump couldn’t burn down a matchbox. Vote for real change: Red Giant 2016!

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There are a lot of factors that drive polarization. I think you’re getting at that we need to try to communicate with people in a way that promotes mutual understanding and a mutual respect of our shared humanity, rather than painting everyone in the cartoonish stereotypes current politics evokes all over the place. I do think that the type of dismissive NYT liberal op-ed pundit assholery that calls most of America “flyover states” contributes to making things worse. Thats’s something we should all aim for (radical, liberal, moderate, conservative, reactionary alike). I see some liberals trying for that, and some conservatives, but the forces we’re dealing with are:

a strong evangelical movement of politicized Christianity that sells conservative talking points as a kind of faithfulness

a massively polarized right-wing media like Fox/Breitbart/Limbaugh/etc. that throw out outrageous lies to polarize the base on an hourly basis

a useless corporate media that decides the narrative then goes investigating to find the facts that fit it (CNN, NYT, WSJ, etc)

a polarizing and generally useless left wing media that I’ve mostly just stopped reading out of sheer aggravation (MoJo, HuffPo, Alternet, etc)

campaign finance changes that allow billionaires to pay for candidates that fit their ideals, and spread propaganda during elections with no restrictions

social media and web forums that create echo chambers reinforcing false views, polarized views, and an us vs. them mentality that dehumanizes people that don’t agree with some set of tribal politics.

As individuals, we participate in that last part, and I agree we can do better (myself included), but we’re honestly a drop in the bucket of a machine that would be as full of polarizing garbage and misinformation even if there was no internet. In the early 90s Fox, AM radio, and the rest were already driving things, the NYT et al were as useless as now, and the Moral Majority and it’s cousins were already running full steam.

I’m all for being better to each other, keeping the importance of being civil and respectful of those who disagree in mind, and trying not to dehumanize fellow human beings even when they hold dangerous and foolish ideas. Still, it’s a drop in the bucket of a set of conditions that keep the polarization going, and even if every liberal was really nice, decent, and thoughtful in their interactions with conservatives (and I do think we should try to live up to being better human beings), I don’t think we’d see any groundswell of improvement.

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This. If you’re voting for trump, then you’re voting to take the country backwards in the face of civil rights, free speech, basic civility, etc. etc. Why is this even a surprise to people?

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Calling them playground bullies is actually praising them with faint damnation. They aren’t playground bullies, they’re the annoying little fat kids that stand behind the bully yelling “ha ha! get him!” when the bully picks on the smallest, weakest kid in the playground. They’re what I’ve heard referred to as “punch-down kiss-up guys”. They will punch down at anyone on their level or below, but cloyingly sycophantic to anyone with any power whatsoever… as if their fairweather loyalty to these people means anything whatsoever.

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Yep. The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer pegged the core base of Trump supporters to a tee:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

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This is why we can’t have nice things

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Really? Speak for yourself. I’m pretty damn liberal and I’m from like five of the flyover states. Although I understand your broader point. Establishment politicians and pundits of all stripes treat Midwesterners, the middle-class, and basically anyone who isn’t in the political class like unsophisticated rubes and useful idiots. They only care about our votes, and then wonder why we don’t just shut up and fall in line and vote for them.

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Here’s my take on this.

I’m not voting for Trump, but from what I’ve heard and read, in a nutshell, the situation is very much like Brexit. There are people who are seriously hurting. Young people saddled with college debt, blue collar people who have been unemployed or under-employed for years.

People who were promised “hope and change” for eight long years, and they still have to pay 7.5% on tens of thousand of dollars of college loans, far higher than any similar type of loan (what’s the interest on your car loan, your mortgage?) and by the way, they can’t even dispose of it by declaring bankruptcy.

People who don’t care that the stock market has more than doubled since Obama took office because they don’t have a stock portfolio, and they’re still trying to make ends meet.

People like that. People for whom the system has failed.

So now we have one tremendously qualified candidate who promises what? With a record that promises what? Incremental change (if any) of a system that has failed people. Woo Hoo! A candidate with a recognized history of following the money. Woo Hoo! A candidate who talks one thing (“I’m against TPP and fracking”) but hires on a transition team chair who is an oil industry advocate and chooses a vice president who is a TPP fast-tracker. Woo Hoo!

Now at least in this country (as opposed to Britain) we have two alternatives, at least we did for a while. One of them, Bernie, ran on the idea that the system is broken and we can overhaul and fix it from the inside. The other is running on the idea that the system is broken and he can fix it.

To a lot of people, the details don’t matter as much as the perception of how the system is treating them. The fact that no, Trump can’t fix things, doesn’t matter. They KNOW Hillary can’t (or won’t); Hope and Change has left the building.

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Go tell Obama you think Hillary has been judged unfairly. Here’s a guy who is leaving office with virtually every measured metric in far better shape than when he took office and he is DEEPLY hated by a huge chunk of the population.

I think Hillary did a terrible job during the primaries getting her message out (or having a consistent message in the first place). She is by far the worst public speaker of any national level politician I have ever heard. I simply can’t listen to her speak for more than a minute or two. That shrill, shouted manner of speaking she has adopted over the last decade reminds me of all of my least favorite teachers in elementary school.

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Even worse than Trump?

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Plus war crimes! As part of his campaign he’s repeatedly and enthusiastically promised to commit frickin’ war crimes!! Whether or not you think Hillary is too hawkish (and I do) I think that Trump’s stand on just this one issue should be disqualifying for any halfway decent individual who is trying to decide who to vote for.

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Not that I’m planning on voting for either, but has Hillary not been high up in administrations actively engaging in war crimes? Or did we actually improve that much from the GWB days?

Trump speaks meaningless gibberish of one syllable, and is a truly awful communicator, but he’s got charisma to spare and knows how to bellow and moderate his tone to engage an audience – like any corporate businessperson, he’s well skilled in making nonsense BS sound like it means something. Hillary has a lot of genuine points that are presented meaningfully, but she’s very short on charisma, speaking in a solid monotone.

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As far a delivery, yes absolutely. Trump does a fine job of getting his shitty ideas and lies across to whomever he is speaking to. Hilary makes me want to clap my hands over my ears and run from the room.

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I mean, sure, if you think some barely-literate angry bully bellowing dick jokes and bigotry at you in words of one syllable is charismatic, sure.

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I can’t bear to listen to him. His lies and bullshit notwithstanding, I can’t stand his delivery, his tone or his tiny vocabulary. I think he’s a dreadful public speaker. I would never, ever buy anything that man is trying to sell. Least of all himself.

Not that I think Clinton is any good, either. She’s a policy wonk.

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At least that will save us from knowing about listeria in our eggo waffles.

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Never said Obama wasn’t judged unfairly too; plenty of that. And Hillary is not a great speaker, I agree.

As an aside, “shrill” is a word that I have never heard applied to a man, though I have heard some male speakers that could apply to. Makes me wince a little, like when I hear a feminist described as “rabid”.

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Man, Tump is really shrill.

At least those administrations had the decency to act embarrassed about them instead of saying “our problem is that we don’t use ENOUGH torture!!”

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