Someone recently pointed out to me that this is a great example of American privilege. When Syrians try to flee a bloody war zone where a totalitarian government is fighting violent religious extremists, western governments dicker over whether or not to allow safe passage to refugees. But when we Americans are confronted with the prospect of a democratically elected President we don’t like we talk about leaving as if the only question is “where will we choose to move to?”
I’ve entertained the “run away!” fantasy myself, but I think it would be more responsible to act in the capacity of “loyal opposition.”
I don’t think you can take the establishment out of politics, you just switch which part of the establishment is in charge. Also recognize the establishment does contain a lot of highly competent good people trying to do good things. The scientific establishment argues for action on climate change and promotes the teaching of evolution. The health establishment advocates for vaccinations and modern medicine. The political establishment tries to advocate for responsible government.
And there is value in switching up the establishment but it’s not the only thing that matters. The Democratic establishment isn’t building its case on Sander’s disloyalty, they’re building it on his overall competency and whether his policies actually work.
Even the Republican establishment is far more moderate than their base. Trump and Cruz are the two most anti-establishment candidates in the race, sooner or later there will be another Republican president, do you want them chosen by the establishment or the base?
Because he thinks Hillary would be a better President, that’s why he endorsed her.
Sadly, none of those things will change no matter who becomes the president. Bills and laws are set by congress, all the money, lobbying, etc etc is aimed at congress. But I can guarantee you that there won’t be nearly this much coverage of the congressional elections in 2 years time (maybe? I’m not a USian, but I’m guessing it alternates like the Olympics do).
Unless there’s a plan for Bernie to go the Fidel Castro (feel free to substitute your favourite revolutionary here) route on the government and take out congress? That would work.
That is OK to me. Congress continues to label themselves as obstructionists and maybe the people will get finally get tired of the stalling. At least I know that the president is looking out for my interests and won’t sign a bad deal because of a handshake under the table.
They haven’t learned anything in 16 years? They have no concerns about the path we have been on? They are just going to ride it out and hope their time is over before everything collapses? Why are you asking me to have empathy for this person?
I’m really not this cynical but…
(from Hodgman’s post):
The question is, what is her ambition? To make money? Impossible. She’s doing fine.
Since when has that stopped anyone from wanting more? There are people who’d like to do more than fine, and her personal wealth is still peanuts to some 20 yo’s in Silicon Valley.
To get power? She’s had it. To get ALL the power, because she is power mad? That’s a creepy conspiracy theory that doesn’t ring true to me.
Fair enough.
I think her ambition is, and has long been, to be the President of the United States, like everyone else in the race, and also to make policy.
I think it’s reasonable to say based on her career that she likes making policy.
So she doesn’t want power, but she wants a strong role in making the rules by which people live their lives? Isn’t that…power?
Pretty much first-term Obama was the only time I recall voting for a candidate as opposed to voting against another candidate whom I considered worse. It’s clear that Bernie is banking on a similar sort of enthusiasm this time around. I wish him luck but the rather lackluster progressivism of Obama in office suggests that it would be pretty much politics as usual even if he did end up winning.
I wish him luck but the rather lackluster progressivism of Obama in office suggests that it would be pretty much politics as usual even if he did end up winning.
Nah. Sanders has consistently shown for decades that he’s a fighter for his values. What you’re saying is that Obama and Sanders are the same in terms of committed progressivism, which just isn’t true. Obama was a committed centrist from early on. He’s not doing things like pushing the TPP because he somehow has to.
I’m not voting for Clinton because she scares me, almost as much as the “Orange Blimp”. She’s pro-war, pro-business, pro-spying, pro-big media, basically pro-everything I’m against. But I’m now supposed to vote for her because she has a big " D" after her name?
I have no loyalty to the Democratic party. I don’t confuse party affiliation with a person’s actual views. It isn’t spite, it’s just refusing to vote for someone who doesn’t have my best interests at heart.
Sanders isn’t a “far left” candidate! I know it feels good to repeat what the corporate press says unthinkingly, but please stop. Sanders would have had little disagreement with Eisenhower, who was a Republican. Indeed, he’s not even proposing to go as far left as Eisenhower did. Sanders is far to the left of the Overton window, and is doing his damnedest to push it back toward the center. But if you want “far left,” think “Che Guevara” or “Fidel Castro” or “Vladimir Lenin,” not “Bernie Sanders.” They would all consider him a capitalist sell-out.
That’s true, but if I’m having a direct conversation with a hillary supporter I am much more reserved and will ask a lot of questions.
So I feel as though the hillary supporters are making a big mistake, she is not going to help the average citizen and will continue to sign handshake bills that support the elite and damage the rest. I believe she is profiting from war. from big energy, from big banks, there is no justifying this. I feel like I need to speak out against it, in the same way I would question religions taking away freedoms, or uncle joe making a racist comment at thanksgiving.
If I’m quiet and my candidate loses, was anything gained?
If I’m open with my opinions and my candidate loses, was I able to at least plant some seeds and maybe they will have later revelations on their own?
I’m a Hillary supporter. I’ve started and abandoned a few posts on this thread because it seems like it would be wasted effort to explain why I was, and I’d leave this site thinking it was inhabited by screeching idiots just a little more than I do right now. I already have memorized the dozen or more topics that seems to be triggers for folks on this site where no rational conversation can happen, and it quickly looks like Hillary is one of these.
So we are dumb and mistaken. I lived through Bill Clinton in Arkansas and I lived through him as President. I realize his wife is a different person, but they are similar. And as someone that came from parents that were making $20k a year total when they were both employed and seeing how Bill helped turn around his state, as well as the country – with Hillary being a major component to his team – I feel that I most certainly came from an average lower class family and was able to make something of myself. And then I saw all the gains go away immediately after Bush was President when he gave away all the surplus that the gov’t had – because we were NEVER going to go into the worst depression in 50 years and thus shouldn’t have a cushion to keep the country running in case there was ever a problem.
I did well under Bill’s administrations. And a lot of other people did too. If the policies hadn’t been done away with, quite a few of the people voting for Bernie wouldn’t be in the state they are right now.
That said, I love Bernie. And we need a LOT more people like him. We need his belief to become common place. We need more of him in congress. We need more people that want to go for the pie in the sky as opposed to just edging towards what is right. I wish Bernie had been a Democrat for more than a year, and I wish he would have used his star powers in a way to move the country to where he wants it to be.
However, his fans REALLY seem like complete and utter assholes and turns me off to him before I realize that I shouldn’t judge the man based on the people that like him.
Maybe a more poignant question from your story would be: what about bills success do you think will translate 16 years later into Hillary’s election… moving past nostalgia.
I think having Bill on her team undos a LOT of this. Even the folks that were prosecuting him for lying about something we’d all lie about after 8 years of not being able to find a single thing illegal – almost all of them seemed to like him and work with him – even if they would have rather gotten him out of the way. I’ve met Bill on a number of occasions…never Hillary…but having him as a team member to me would fix a LOT of things in politics.
I’ve worked for and taken money from some horrible companies. Hell, a drug dealer helped me fund one of my charity projects and I’m pretty sure he is a murderer too. And I’ve worked with Eli Lilly that makes him look like a small player. I’d love to see the big drug companies broken up and turned into public interests. And yet if I had the opportunity to take money from any of these folks again, I’d do so. It doesn’t change my attitude towards them in the slightest.
And I know a LOT of folks in the public sector that have to do the exact same things. I’d trust them with my life and my interests. Some people look at money as a way to do good in this world – and working with assholes is a way to get it sometimes. I personally think you can take money from and work with those you don’t care for and not be compromised.
Because I feel that Obama’s been on the right track. Honestly, I think a lot of the vile towards him comes from racists that can’t stand that an uppity negro is telling them what to do. I think that if Obama had been white, there would have been a lot more compromise – and I still think that the country is on a far better path than it was 8 years ago.
I feel that Hillary is an extension of this. I think if we could continue this path to improvement, we would be on solid footing, and I think we are going to get there. I see what Obama did with the Right fully against him and and 4.5 members of the supreme court and the progress we’ve made. If we get up to a solid 5 members, society would be far better. Beyond this, Hillary and Bill are awesome at getting members of congress elected. Bernie not so much Moving the congress more to the left is paramount to getting this country on track.
Again, I like Bernie – I just think the skills Hillary brings will be better for the country. And I’m not going to say anything horrible about Bernie just because I think she’d be better. We can all make our points without demonizing the other side.
See, I understand this. I disagree with this being the criteria for selecting a candidate, but wevs- it’s a criteria and people prioritze different things and have different values. I get it. Fine.
But, I think I can speak for a lot of mystified, puzzled, and/or frustrated Bernie supporters when I say that too many Hillary supporters presume that we’re close on values, or that our interests neatly overlap. And never was it more clear to me than it is now that there are two types of leftists in this country and that we might have incompatible goals. I don’t need this country fixed twenty years from now. I need it fixed yesterday, and I’m not alone in this.
Not everyone is in a comfortable enough position to tolerate gradualism. And I’m talking about the literal definition of tolerate: as in to at least barely put up with it. There are always going to be strategic constraints and considerations. The problem is that negotiating from the middle is not how anyone rational with a vested and urgent interest behaves.
I think we ALL need it fixed yesterday. Even the people voting for Trump are doing this because they feel it needs to be fixed yesterday.
However if the reality is that we can’t get it yesterday, and we can’t get it in a year but that we are still ahead of where we were – and certainly not moving backwards? What if the reality is that the only way to get there is to have patience.
This is the thing I’m scared of. I don’t think Bernie is going to affect congress the way we need. This is one of the truths I believe in. I don’t believe that he is going to get the country on his side – I seem him the way I see Trump – there are a small group of people that want them both and they are VERY vocal about him, but neither is going to affect congress. If we had a Democratic majority in congress? I think Bernie would be effective. I think he could get us where we need. We don’t. And that isn’t his fault. I just tend to think people forget there are more parts to the equation than simply just being President.
Here’s to both of us being wrong about our predictions…and I think we overlap far more than you think we do
I feel like we are all putting rhetoric before reality.
