IIRC, the Rapture was supposed to be 144K people.
Over 500K go missing in the US annually. We wouldn’t even notice.
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That number comes from a line in the bible that basically says a “gross thousand Jews that have not been with women”. Different branches of Christianity disagree how literally to take that figure, especially if you’re not going to worry about the second part.
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Obligs:
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There was a big billboard in my area that Harold Camping’s group paid for advertising the end time date; I remember joking that this time I wouldn’t put off my rapture day shopping until the last minute again.
It got slightly less funny when Camping (who seemed to be a true believer) suffered a massive stroke likely exacerbated by the stress of seeing his prophecies fail to materialize.
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To be fair, that’s just one interpretation of the bible. Plenty of Christians are of the notion that their goal should be to push for world peace, not for the destruction of our society and our world… In many churches, you hear more about doing good work, and being loving to one another as Jesus’ primary message, and much of the rest of the bible being treated as essentially parables or lore from history - not a prediction from the past…
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I’m aware not every Christian believes the same things, but “Christianity” still includes the fringe cults. The Bible includes nice things and terrible things and things that can be one or the other depending on individual interpretation. Since it is, to be blunt, mostly fictional to begin with, there’s nothing that makes one interpretation more “correct” than any other. The nice Christians ignore the horrible parts of the Bible and lean towards interpretations that favor their morals just as much as the mean Christians ignore the kind parts of the Bible and lean towards interpretations that favor their lack of morals.
As an aside, apologies for going so far off topic.
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As @Doctor_Faustus noted, these are a pretty small sect of a pretty large and diverse religion (even if you only take protestants into account). And I’d argue that the right wingers are pretty much ignoring the most important scriptures for a Christian, which is the Jesus stuff. It’s far less problematic to take the OT and treat it like a set of parables and historically-situated lore that relates to a specific group of people, rather than a guidebook that some right-wingers treat it as. This is what fascists do - they find things that they can use to justify their attempt to control the rest of us. There is a long history of finding ways to cherry pick the bible to back up their views. Most more progressives aren’t really doing that, since they aren’t literalists. That distinction matters.
Seems like a useful tangent rather than a problematic one!
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I don’t know how large the specific antichrist-believing sect is, but large enough or disproportionately represented enough to bleed into politics, which makes it a problem I have to worry about. You’ve likely noticed that I have a pretty dim view of religion in general (and you and others have reined me in when I take that opinion a bit too far, which I actually do appreciate), and this sort of thing is part of the reason why. When someone tells me they’re a Christian, it’s almost meaningless. They could be Mister Rogers or they could be Fred Phelps. I don’t understand why the progressive Christians continue to chain themselves to the Biblical literalists via this shared book of contradictory, supernatural tales rather than, I don’t know, considering themselves Deists and concentrating entirely on the good works and morals while distancing themselves from their hateful counterparts. That distinction matters, like you said, but it doesn’t seem to be one that Christians are particularly interested in defining for themselves.
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For the same reason I am continuing to wear Aloha shirts despite the attempts by some a-holes to take over the look (whatever happened to them, btw? They seem to have vanished, and good riddance, too). I can’t stress enough how these biblical literalists are a minority. Definitely globally, but even in the US.
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So does my fridge.
And beyond a certain point there is hard data and non-individual criteria that tells when something has gone bad and harmful.
That’s something of a non-argument, if that is the right word. Every ideology is fictional. People think it up. Other people think “sounds good, let’s do this” or “seems stupid, let’s not do this” or “meh”.
(Clarification: from where I sit, religions and ideologies are functionally pretty much the same at street level.)
Besides, a lot of stuff is “fictional” in the sense that it is a social construct not based on hard facts - but it is as real as anything can get. As in “shit just got real”. Even if it is complete and utter nonsense in every possible interpretation of that word. For some reason, the people who get the short end of the stick seem to be more acutely aware of this, but I can’t quite put my finger on it.
Again, even leaving ethics (which always lurks around the corner and seems to be surprisingly consistent over the millennia) aside, it is possible to collect data and look at that data using criteria like “does it tolerate other ideas” or “does it lead to genocide” or “does it make people happy without making other people sad” and so on.
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Potential funniest crossing of the threads ever, from this to the food thread.
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That’s mainly because certainly right-wing racist politicians find them useful. In general, the white evangelical movement (across the board) has become highly over-represented in discussions on religions. The popular perception is that they are some kind of “silent majority” representing the views of most white Christians and most white Americans, which is not the case. The large overlap with the MAGA movement shows they are a pretty small with regards to the general population. The media gives them too much voice and has been too focused on them as the “legitmate” voice of Christians.
Yeah, it’s a problem. Part of the problem is too many of us letting the fascists try and dictate reality (that they are the only “real” Christians, that they are a silent majority, etc). We have to start understanding that’s not the case, and pushing back against that false narrative. It only feeds their movement when we agree that they are the “real” Christians and everyone else are satan incarnate.
That difference matters. Mr. Rogers is probably more representative of how many Christians view the world. Fred Phelps was universally despised and had a following of a few hundred at best. Yeah, he was a shitty asshole who hurt people, but do you really think that his impact is the same as Mr. Rogers? Really?
You’re making assumptions on how people understand the bible. There are various ways that people treat the bible in their faith, and I’d wager that most Christians are not literallists. Paiting with a broadbrush isn’t helpful. Lumping in all Christians under the fascist umbrella is letting the fascists win here.
Millions of people do that. And they don’t go around talking about what a good person they are for doing so, because they are likely trying to cultivate humbleness in their attitude.
Many do. Let’s stop letting assholes define the thing and look at the actual facts in front of us. Why let a minority define the whole? How is that helpful, and how does that help us to find allies in a world where we all seek our own paths? Right now, we’re in a fight for how the future will look, and doing things like lumping in a diverse group of people under an umbrella that is defined by hate isn’t going to save us. Seeking allies where and when we can WILL.
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The largest Christian denominations in the US are apparently the Catholics, Baptists, and Methodists. I’d propose that if something can’t be said about at least those three, it really shouldn’t be considered as representative of American Christianity.
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And of course, Baptists and Methodists are pretty divided on a variety of issues… just look at what the SBC did this week, but that’s not representative of all Baptists either. Hell, there are even splits within Catholicism going back to the Vatican II (electric boogaloo) period.
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Barcodes from hell on the people’s foreheads…
Next to microchips implanted via vaccination syringes, this looks so old. But it is a page from the same book.
Far, far to many people simply refuse to think and rather believe in something. Maybe they want to be in control of the narrative because they feel powerless. Maybe they are overwhelmed by so many contradictory impressions the world makes on them.
Or maybe, just maybe, if you look, people are stupid overall.
If prayers worked, I would pray for Trump to be one of the 144k. That, we would notice, I guess. It would be our salvation, wouldn’t it?
To misquote a certain Mr. Towers: don’t mention 1054.
On a serious note: while this topic and it’s different asides are fun, the elephant in the room is that we are using the example of a (admittedly very successful and hence politically sadly important) grifter to discuss some of some fundamental flaws of us, as a social species. Item, manipulability, gullibility, stubbornness and zealotry.
Education is the only answer I can see. Education in a Humboldtian way.
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