Mormon official silences 12-year-old girl in church after she says she's gay

Still insisting on your own definitions, I see.

Explain please?

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Labeling people and calling them names because you disagree with them or are sure of your own “rightness” is a great way to create an echo chamber where you only ever hear from people that agree with you. Isn’t that exactly what secularists accuse religious people of doing?

There are sincere people available that want to help explain, but few want any of it. That sure resembles a kind of intolerance to me. Seems like it’s a human problem rather than a religion problem.

I think I’ve said what I need to say. People can believe what they want.

You do seem sincere, but we’re still waiting for you to actually explain.

Seems to me that the church, and you yourself, remain intolerant of LGTBQ+ members, but you don’t want to actually say so. Reason being, you think we’re “intolerant” of such a mere difference of opinion.

The trouble is, active intolerance of LGTBQ+ people isn’t merely another opinion, and therefore something that those with other opinions should just accept; it’s bigoted abuse. And so, I see no good reason at all to tolerate it.

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I’m not labeling anyone or calling anyone any names. I’m simply saying there’s a way to go before the Mormon Church (and a few other churches) can be welcoming toward everyone. I have nothing against them, and would like to see them sort out their issues.

It’s not disagreement. Nobody thinks it is, including you.

Yes, I’m sure of my rightness. I believe all human beings deserve basic human dignity and respect. Don’t you?

Interesting phrasing there. Who says secular people do not believe in religion, or even tolerate religion? I like religion, and think it can be used for good in the world. Religion is a deeply personal thing, and different people relate to God on different levels. It’s when religion is used to discriminate and dehumanize that it becomes an issue. Religion can be a force for love or for hate.

This is a young girl trying to figure out her life, not a political operative pushing an agenda. She deserves support and love at this time in her life. It is clear from her statement that she still wants to be Mormon, so the church shouldn’t push her away.

Instead, she gets pushed away by a church that offers her nothing in the way of support, and, if anything, implicitly encourages those who commit violence against gay people.

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Sorry buddy, but that crap doesn’t fly. There is too high a body count and too many broken lives in the wake of your views to simply treat it as a polite genteel dispassionate discussion

If your position is that certain classes of people do not deserve to be treated like human beings, or should not exist, and that your religious beliefs excuse such malicious actions, then there is no compelling reason to “tolerate” it. Not even in the spirit of civility. Moreover, there a moral obligation to oppose such views.

To “tolerate” such malice is to pretend it is something normal, acceptable and worthy of consideration. To make me complicit in your cruel views and behavior. So as a moral human being, I am obligated not to treat your views with the respect you wish.

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“Our assumptions are the only valid ones”

“Our facts are the only true ones”

“Our philosophy is the only correct one”

“Our island is the only island”

Not sure why any self-respecting person would engage in a conversation that starts with “Why do you beat your wife?”, or “Why do you belong to the wife-beater club?”

Do you deny that treating human beings with basic human dignity is the only correct position?

If so, explain why.

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Just as an aside, the chief proponents of secularism are not just atheists, but members of minority faiths who are typically subject to discrimination. Secularism was first proposed in its modern form as an integral part of the theology of Anabaptists. Separation of Church and state to protect both.

Theocrats don’t like to acknowledge that plenty of religions do not agree with them or that their views do not constitute the entirety of all religious belief.

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Not engaging with your loaded premise, sorry. You’re just insisting I come live on your island and see things exactly the way you do, on this topic at least.

I will say that no one should ever feel ashamed of their sexuality.

I’m sorry, but how is the notion that we’re all human beings deserving of love and respect “loaded”? Shouldn’t that be an island that all of us are on together?

That sounds to me like you’re in agreement with the folks you’re trying to argue with here? I think we’d all agree with that statement. It’s just that we’d like to see what the LDS church (as well as many other churches) are doing to create more tolerant and loving environments for their LBGQT members? I’m not sure how you’re taking that as an attack.

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When we all die and go to heaven, we’ll find out that the correct answer was…

…the Amish. Who are the Amish.

Who woulda thunk it?

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Ugh, enough with such canards.

Treating LGBTQ+ people with respect instead of inhumane abuse is not merely another “philosophy,” nor is it merely one among many “islands” of differing opinion.

O really? So what is your church actively doing now to reverse its long tradition of shaming and abusing those with differing sexualities?

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Nice! Maybe you can use one of those straw people as a raft and explore some of the other islands.

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Velcome to Boing Boing, comrade.

Pssst! Newsflash:

No one here has “an island,” including you.

We all live on the same planet, and we have to figure out how to coexist respectfully and peacefully; because nobody is just going to stop existing due to others’ ‘discomfort’ with the minute differences that make up the diversity of the human race.

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If you’re not a leader of the Church of LDS yourself I hope you make sure to push that philosophy in a very public and loud way, because openness to those of non-heterosexual orientations is one of those areas where your national organisation could stand to make a lot of improvements (see, e.g., its support of California Proposition H8).

A community’s aspirations mean nothing if community members don’t take active measures to implement them. It’s people like yourself who need to stand up to the hidebound and bigoted attitudes of the sclerotic Elders in SLC and some local leaders and make your church more welcoming.

Why should you do it? The future of any church is its youth, and Millenials and younger kids of all religions are increasingly choosing to be on the right side of history when it comes to anti-LGBTQ bigotry. If your Church Elders (national and local) choose to stay on the wrong side of history, the result in 21st century America will be numbers of adherents that dwindle despite all biological efforts to keep the demographics growing.

It’s a win-win for most of the people debating you here: either the Church adopts standards of tolerance and decency (as it belatedly did with African-Americans in the late 1970s) or it starts dying out with its Boomer members. I’m good with either outcome.

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The lds church is aspiring to be so tolerant and loving that a couple of years ago they created a policy to excommunicate married same sex couples from the church, and to disallow children of same sex couples to be baptized until they turn 18 and disavow their parent’s lifestyle.

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If he doesn’t do any of those things he’s standing by while his religion ages itself into fringe cult status. If that’s the choice he makes, I’m fine with it (granted, it’s unlikely I’ll be affected by its no doubt ugly death throes).

Odd that it wasn’t dramatised in all those PSAs on the joys of family togetherness.

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