No, pick on him, by all means. Any point he might’ve had has been lost in the breadth and depth of his vast fuckwittery.
No, it wasn’t. I haven’t seen the scene yet, but I remember the outcry when it came out. The scene in the book was the first time Cersei had seen Jaime in months, and it was a mutual moment, although she wanted him to be careful because the nuns might come in.
I think that’s true. But I also think that the universe as Martin has set it up has Cersei wielding power in a way that is feasible for her to do. But she’s also not really very smart and makes tons of dumb mistakes, especially in the 4th and 5th books, and is really outfoxxed by Margery in many ways in their behind the scenes power struggles for her sons. I think it is entirely within reason of the universe to have men want to punish women for pushing to far. It happens in real life, actually. Isn’t that part of what fiction is meant to do - reflect our own world and reality in a way that helps us to better understand it?
Yes, I think that’s true and I think that’s his point…
Had to look her up, as I wasn’t sure who she was… but what’s wrong with romance novels. Not my cup of tea, but it still seems a genre that people don’t take seriously… I wonder why?
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Exactly - I feel exactly the same about it. Weirdly, it seems to come up as often from people (mainly men, as you say) who are openly ‘on the same side’ as strong women - Joss Whedon comes to mind, or Neil Gaiman - as from those who are plugging a conservative worldview or simply unthinking (perhaps ‘unthinkingly accepting a conservative worldview’, I dunno).
In GOT (the book) there was a fairly creepy sex scene in a crypt but as far as I recall it wasn’t rape or it’s sordid cousin the rape-that-she-enjoys-in-the-end. However there was a really unpleasant scene, the point of which I have not been able to fathom, where Cersei is publicly humiliated and I don’t know whether this is in the TV series. Either way, she is sexually humiliated as a result of seeking power, which I found crude and distasteful.
It wasn’t at all… keep in mind the characters we’re talking about are siblings (twins) anyway and this is all happening over their dead son.
that’s in the upcoming season. But again, I think that was the point. Cersei is one of those characters that people really love to hate, because she’s so distasteful, and this scene you’re talking about actually creates a sense of sympathy for her, because she’s being punished for pushing against gender norms of her society. I think the point is to relate that back to our own society and how we punish women for seeking power and “acting like men”. [edited to add] I’m not sure depicting something is the same thing as endorsing the behavior, btw.
Quoted for truth!
Most of what I’ve seen of GOT doesn’t seem particularly new or progressive. All that sexuality and nudity and sexualized violence seems like more of the same. It’s all very porn-ey to me (and I’ve been online since 1989, so I know my porn!). It just seems really exploitative in a pretty typical way. The books are probably a little more nuanced, but even then, it’s victimized and sexualized women written in a romantic fashion, by a male author. None of it has come off as very subversive or unique to me (I tried to read the books but the writing style is so not appealing to me, but I’ve read plenty of synopsis). I mean, I’m sure it’s great fun and I don’t fault anyone for enjoying it, but is it really all that unique or anything? I don’t really think so.
I feel like even True Blood was more subversive. At least they played with the female gaze and the gay male gaze more, and even the lesbian gaze (PAM!), and were winky and campy.
But this is WAY off topic and my knowledge of GOT stops here so I shall probably stop this line of discussion haha.
It wasn’t just comics, but all of fictional medium; the true problem lies in the mentality on the Ideal sexual Diversity as a whole.
With a little help from a teammate.
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Yeah, I guess you can excuse it that way - to me, it’s just another ‘woman, know your place!’ moment. Different readings of the same thing.
Romance writers produce material which is in accordance with the range of sexual expression considered respectable for women. It’s non-transgressive and safe, and therein lies its failure to be taken seriously. Jilly Cooper is a bit more than a romance writer… 
I remember the first time I picked one up during a bored moment one summer, at a great-aunt’s house…
I tend to agree somewhat about the show being exploitative to some extent and I don’t think we can say it’s progressive, necessarily. I’d still argue you have some interesting women in there, though, and even the ones who are victims of sexual violence have agency. Given the nature of how most women appear in fantasy series, historically speaking, it kind of is a step forward to have women who are fully fleshed out characters (YMMV).
And oddly enough, one thing the show is a bit better on is the depictions of gay characters, which martin himself hasn’t really done more than imply.
I haven’t seen that, so I can’t say. I trust your judgement!
But yeah, the topics way over there, and we’re way other there, dancing about in the clover fields of high fantasy… 
In fairness there’s at least one dude who gets pretty thoroughly sexually victimized too. I won’t go into details, but it’s enough to elicit sympathy for a pretty horrible guy.
I don’t recall if any of the main female characters actually got raped in the books, though there is a mention of a background character who gets gang-raped during a riot and one or two incidents where main characters are almost raped before being rescued (or self-rescuing). And then there’s the aforementioned moment in the upcoming season where a character is sexually humiliated but not physically assaulted.
If you have to sexually humiliate a character in order to rebuild some sympathy for her (particularly one who has suffered as much as she has as the tide turned against her family, and who has already by that point fallen from such a high point) then I’d suggest the game is probably up - as indeed it is in her case. The scene doesn’t make her any more sympathetic, it seems like simple comeuppance. That’s why I think it reinforces rather that critiquing the trope of punishing powerful women.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but it made me feel sympathetic for a character who basically plunged the whole kingdom into war. Whether that’s what Martin MEANT, I can’t tell. If you are arguing that most people probably read it the way your saying, I can also understand that point of view, too.
but your right in that it might just do that. This was my subjective reading of the scene, but I can see how others might have read it this way. I still argue it’s about the society she lives in punishing her for her transgressions, not necessarily martin.
Sorry, but as I stated before everything manmade were the reflection of their ideals created by the environment that they inhabit; The problem comes from the fact that when it was created by a person with little to no relationships with a diverse group of people, then the product would reinforce that stereotypical mentality that plague this society as a whole.
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And then there is Ygritte.
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Come to think of it there have been a lot of characters like that in the series.
- Introduce unlikable character (guy who bangs his own sister and tosses kids out of windows, woman who is needlessly cruel to her husband’s illegitimate child, backstabbing little warmonger who uses his nobility as an excuse to use women like sex toys)
- Put character through horrible suffering (physical mutilation, public humiliation, and loss of everyone and every thing character loves)
- Create deep but involuntary sympathy for previously hated character
Can I just say that this discussion today has been insanely fun, and despite the trolls, pretty productive? Thanks for everyone who contributed in a serious manner (or a sarcastic manner, aimed at the trolls).
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I’d read the novels, and was saving watching the show until I could convince my partner to watch it with me. Then, I read about that scene.
The first thing that I thought of was that, holy crap, there’s not already so much violence in the novels, that you had to add more? But, then, I remembered what was going on with the characters at that point in the novels, and how that was radically incompatible with their character arcs. So I had to conclude that the producers of the show were willing to compromise essential elements of the story in order to cram in more sexualized violence.
I’m not sure I could bear watching the show now.
I think that’s totally fair enough, too.
True Blood was very, very gay, in many ways. I highly recommend it if you want some campy, sexy fun that caters more to the female (lesbian, too!) and gay male gaze. LOTS of sexy lesbian scenes, particularly featuring Pam, who is a bad ass:
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