20 seconds in and he’s offering words of condolence, support and encouragement.
I don’t even feel like finishing that thought by contrasting him with someone who is far, far beneath his dignity.
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Are you suggesting the reason most Democratic primary voters backed Biden is because Obama called them on the phone and asked them to?
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I agree %100. The best burns are the ones where you let the other walk away from an altercation thinking they just owned it, then they realize an hour or so later that you were walking away smiling. Then they recall what you said and think “wait a minute…”
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I keep repeating this ad nauseam, but the actual polling does not support your wallowing in pessimism.
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Your commitment to help hand Trump four more years to burn down the country because you believe in a conspiracy theory is seen and noted. If Trump wins reelection, we’ll know we have you to thank for it.
And yes, Bernie was by far my preferred candidate (after Warren). But now that we’re stuck with Biden, I’m not going to throw a tantrum and let Trump destroy the country because I didn’t get my way.
Remember, sitting out the vote is consent to the incumbent. Maybe you plan to vote 3rd party, in which case, unwise but not consent.
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So folks are stating that it is Bernie’s own fault for not pulling enough primary votes, but if Biden doesn’t pull enough votes for President it is… Bernie’s fault.
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I don’t speak for others, but that’s not what I said AT ALL. Bernie endorsed Biden.
It’s no one’s fault who did or didn’t get the nomination, despite my wish it had done to Bernie or Warren. But if Bernie supporters decline to vote against Trump in the general because they’re mad Bernie didn’t win the primary, then it’s their fault if Trump gets reelected. Not the candidates, the voters. And if they do so because of a belief in a conspiracy theory manifestly untrue that’s even more tragic.
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I certainly hope you’re right, but you DO remember what the polls said last time, right?
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maybe we could talk about the news instead of about each other
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A twelve-minute shotgun blast that hit everything!
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By this logic, I don’t understand why it isn’t Biden primary voters’ fault that we have to choose between the blue war monger and the red war monger. The outcome of the primary is no one’s fault, but all of the sudden Bernie supporters are held culpable for Trump’s re-election in the general? Why aren’t the primary voters who chose to nominate an objectively terrible human being held to the same standard?
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tell those Bernie supporters how they feel about a 7:2 supreme court because thats what they’ll get with 4 more years of Dolt45. Then ask them how they expect any progressive legislation to be passed after a 7:2 supreme court challenge
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Not this Bernie supporter, because this Bernie supporter isn’t going to throw us all under the Trump bus just because he didn’t get a candidate he wanted. If Bernie had won the primary, then any Biden supporters who refused to vote for Bernie or at least against Trump in the general would be culpable if Trump was reelected.
This isn’t rocket science. Anyone who votes for Trump or sits out the election is responsible if Trump is reelected, and if he doesn’t win reelection, it won’t be thanks to them. Which candidate they supported in the primary is irrelevant to whether or not they’re responsible for four more years of Trump, despite some people’s persecution complexes that make them certain it’s all about their camp.
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I don’t disagree with anything you wrote here, but I’m still getting whiplash from your other post where you go from “it’s no one’s fault who did or didn’t get the nomination,” to it being the voters’ fault if Trump is reelected.
addressing a Bernie supporter who stayed home in the general “Thanks a lot you selfish jerk! Way to make this election all about you, it’s YOUR fault that we now have another 4 years of Trump. Next time learn to get over your persecution complex!”
addressing a Biden primary voter after he clinches the nomination “While I may not agree with your decision to vote for an accomplice to the Iraq War, I have to respect your decision and acknowledge that you must have had good reasons for doing so.”
To be clear, I actually think it’s unproductive for the most part to scold either one of these voters for these choices, and wish we could instead work out a strategy for making them feel like they have something to gain by supporting our candidate next time. I have to admit I just get a little annoyed when I see lots of the first scenario casually bandied about around here, while there’s no soul searching as to why Biden’s moral character and past judgement just didn’t seem to be an issue for most primary voters.
edit oops, sorry, I meant to say that I see lots of the first scenario bandied about here. Sleep deprivation, apologies.
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I’m not scolding anyone for their choice in the primary. If they sit out the general they’re as culpable as Trump voters, irrespective how they voted in the primary. When they promote manifestly false conspiracy theories trying to discredit the results of the primary, as did the person I first replied to in this thread, that’s a clear signal of intent to throw us under the Trump bus. I’m going to call them on that.
And as much as I loathe the politics of Biden, I’m going to listen to Bernie’s advice and hold my nose in November while I vote against Trump. In no way am I happy about it. It fucking sucks. But I’m not selfishly going to put my grievances ahead of removing Trump from office. I see a consistent fraction of people sullenly signaling that they are, and that deserves to be called out.
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“I’m not scolding anyone for their choice in the primary.” Yeah, I think that’s the double standard I’m identifying here. You feel comfortable calling out people for throwing us under the Trump bus, but for some reason there isn’t the same impetus to call people out for throwing us under the Biden bus. I realize that there aren’t likely many/any Biden primary voters here, so sorry if I’m just wasting your time, but I think that tendency to give leftists who make bad choices a whole world of shit while not being similarly aggressive with liberals who are making bad choices is indicative of how the broader discourse is going right now.
But to reiterate, I’m not suggesting that you should go along shaming Biden voters. Maybe just, next time you want to get aggressive with someone who isn’t voting for Biden in the general, consider if you would approach the conversation in the same way with a Biden voter (back when there were still viable alternatives in the primary). I think that you could come up with a myriad of reasons you shouldn’t talk to the Biden supporter that way (e.g., there’s no point in alienating them, maybe they can be swayed to your position, etc.). Then ask yourself if those same reasons also apply to the disaffected leftist. That seems like less of a waste of time than recycling the same lesser evil logic that everyone’s already heard for decades. Maybe I’m being utopian.
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There were several commenters in this thread who signaled they don’t believe Biden can win, which strongly suggests they won’t even try. Yet I only replied to the commenter promoting a manifestly false conspiracy theory trying to discredit the results of the primary. And you’re damn right I’d call a supporter of any candidate out for doing that. But we don’t live in the world I’d prefer to live in where Biden lost the primary. Consequently spurring Biden supporters to try to discredit the primary.
If you want to blame Biden supporters for Bernie losing the primary then be my guest. But equating the primary the outcome of which is settled to the general which remains at hand is a false equivalence. And replying to my criticism of someone promoting a manifestly false conspiracy theory with what about the culpability of Biden supporters in the primary is naked whataboutism.
There’s a very strong tendency of people, most especially on the internet, to assume that anyone criticizing anyone in one’s tribe is biased against one’s tribe, and anyone criticizing anyone in someone else’s tribe is biased in favor of one’s own tribe.
People in our own tribes fuck up. Spreading manifestly false conspiracy theories is fucking up. Obama didn’t “make the calls that knocked out Bernie and gave doddering Joe the nomination.”
I don’t feel obligated to criticize Biden supporters for something unrelated every time I call out a supporter of another candidate for a bad faith argument. YMMV.
This has digressed far enough. I’ve said my piece and have nothing more to add to this digression. I sincerely wish you a good day. Be well.
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Fair enough, but just regarding
It’s true that it doesn’t make sense to yell at Biden voters at this point because the primary is settled, and it’s best strategically to work together to defeat Trump. I just hope that same reasoning prevails if (and let me put a huge stress on that IF) Biden loses the election. We will be in a very similar situation where we will be faced with the challenge of figuring out how we come together to defeat the right wing in an even more challenging environment, and we’re going to need to understand what the red lines were for those people who didn’t vote for Biden and how we can avoid them in the next primary.
I should stress that I have no reason to believe that you aren’t the type to be pragmatic in those difficult situations, I’m just putting that out there because we’ve seen lots of liberals acting in bad faith casting all sorts of blame on the left for 2016 without engaging in any self reflection of their own, and maybe someone who needs to hear this more than you sees it. I should also apologize for using you as something of a scapegoat for that wider tendency I’m criticizing. I have some disagreements with you regarding the specific exchange at hand, but it’s clear that you’re acting in good faith and it’s not really fair of me to do that. Maybe someone who really does need to slow their roll will see this and it will shape their next conversation in a positive way.
All the best to you as well.
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Obama’s sick burns are here:
Satisfying as they are now, I wish he’d picked a different target that evening.
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