Shootout in Oregon: one terrorist killed, eight arrested

[Brainspore]

@TooGoodToCheck_

The willingness to die for a cause isn’t the worst aspect of humanity.

I agree. My main problem with this group is that they were threatening to kill for their cause, not to die for it.

[anon68952647]

Speaking of slippery slopes…

[RogerStrong]

@TooGoodToCheck_

Basically, I guess what I’m trying to get at is that I don’t need to shit-talk the dead

A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it.

• Oscar Wilde

If someone is doing something spectacularly stupid and dishonest, criticizing them is fair game. That they died doing that spectacularly stupid and dishonest thing, does not grant them an exception.

Nor does it grant immunity from criticism to all the claims of victimhood and sainthood from his supporters.

[fuzzyfungus]

It seems particularly odd to execution-style only one of the targets. Aside from the fairly obvious lack of desire, on the feds’ part, for a pile of bodies(had they wanted that, they could have gone in more or less on day 1, AR-15s don’t do much against armored vehicles); why would you go to the trouble and risk of capturing 5/6 alive and then executing the last one if you have the option to either kill them all or capture them all? Leaves pesky witnesses, makes it look like the plan didn’t go to plan, etc.

[TooGoodToCheck_]

I just don’t see the point in describing him as a “lying coward” if he was surrendering and was then shot by police. (I don’t think this happened, but it was the scenario under discussion)

The occupiers of malheur have done some seriously destructive and stupid shit. Why trash talk the one reasonable thing that one of them might have done?

[Franko]

yeah, the sources for that are SUPER dubious. michele fiore is a joke in nevada. i hope this ends her career, but sadly it probably won’t. i look forward to a formal report, possibly with video corroboration.

[Brainspore]

@TooGoodToCheck_

I just don’t see the point in describing him as a “lying coward” if he was surrendering and was then shot by police. (I don’t think this happened, but it was the scenario under discussion)

Fair enough. “Unwilling or unable to live up to his earlier bluster” then.

[nixiebunny]

This is all interesting to me, because I’ve done an illegal occupation of federal land also. It was with a radio transmitter, to power our unlicensed radio station in Tucson, Radio Limbo, fifteen years ago. We hiked the transmitter up into the mountains, and set it up on protected federal wilderness land. We were careful to not damage anything. The USFS confiscated our first transmitter, which taught us to hide the next one in a field of sticker bushes and only run it at night.

We eventually had the FCC bring a SWAT team to raid our studio, but since the station was so well loved, we got word in advance and bugged out the day before. No shots were fired, even though the guy whose house was raided was a staunch gun lover. He was just not an idiot.

[anon68952647]

@TooGoodToCheck_

Why trash talk the one reasonable thing that one of them might have done?

Why should I look for hay in the needlestack?

[milliefink]

Hay! I straw what you did there.

[anon68952647]

I mow, I mow. I’ll bale now.

[Miller_Smith]

Uh…who were they terrorizing?

[Franko]

RELEVANT: ammon bundy’s bodyguard/driver (who was there) made a video describing what happened. sounds like the guy that was killed tried to drive away from the blockade, and was not on his knees and was quite worked up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP-b6_X4M4k

[anon50609448]

@Mister44

The most recent incident may or may not be justified. I concede the officers may indeed have acted correctly. I just find it interesting that in most cases on this site commenters are not willing to give officers any benefit of the doubt for questionable actions, and super quick to condemn (and lump everyone in the same boat) for clearly wrong actions.

Maybe we don’t consider all “police shoots person” situations to be identical spheres? Perhaps the reason many of us are more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the police in this case actually has to do with known facts rather than biases?

Many of the cases that spark outrage involve young unarmed black men. We’ve lamented people being shot while fleeing, shopping at WalMart, walking down the street, or playing in the park. Sometimes there are videos showing what happened, videos showing the police didn’t hesitate for a moment before shooting.

If evidence came to light in one of these cases that the man in question had been armed and had sworn to kill any police officer who tried to arrest him publicly just days before, then I think you might see the level of outrage about the shooting die down a bit. Different facts, different reactions.

@Franko

RELEVANT: ammon bundy’s bodyguard/driver (who was there) made a video describing what happened. sounds like the guy that was killed tried to drive away from the blockade, and was not on his knees and was quite worked up:

See, this I just shake my head at. I think shooting fleeing suspects is bullshit. You should only do that if there is an imminent danger, but they’d been letting these guys come and go for weeks.

[milliefink]

@Mister44

But - I also find it very interesting that because they were armed, the government initially let them alone. Had they done a sit in, how would this have ended? Probably mouths full of pepper spray and cuffs on the first workday. This seems to bolster the argument that the 2nd Amendment protects the 1st, even if I can’t really support its use in this case.

I knew you’d find a way to defend their gun-love. And that in the process, you’d leave out a much more likely reason they’ve been treated so carefully, even respectfully – they’re mostly middle-aged white guys. As many people have said here and in many other places, flashing guns AND threatening to use them would have only increased the harsh treatment doled out to protesters like those in Ferguson, or for that matter, those who comprised the Occupy Movement.

But oh suuuure, YOU’RE the one objective, non-hypocritical observer with no skin in the game here.

[Nonentity]

Not the greatest of sources, but supposedly from the livestream broadcasting from the wildlife refuge:

“There are no laws in this United States now, this is free for all armageddon, any L.E.O., or military, or law enforcement or feds who stand up and fuck their oath and don’t…a bide by their oath, are the enemy… if they stop you from getting here, kill them!”

This really doesn’t sound like it’s going to de-escalate any time soon.

[Brainspore]

@Miller_Smith

Uh…who were they terrorizing?

• Anyone who worked at the refuge
• Anyone who wanted to use the refuge for its intended purpose
• Native Americans whose cultural history and artifacts are effectively being held hostage
• Anyone who would attempt to enforce the law by removing or arresting the armed militants occupying the site

If your “political protest” hinges on the credible threat of deadly violence then you’re not a peaceful protester. This situation is no different than if a bunch of loons held a site hostage with a bomb.

[CarlMud]

If you can find a nationally televised interview with an eventual victim of a police shooting that has been covered on Boing Boing in which the dead person wielded a gun during a prolonged criminal act and claimed that the authorities would not take them alive, then I will concede to claims of (ignorant) hypocrisy.

But how can you claim honestly claim hypocrisy when you also admit not knowing enough about the scenario to know whether this scenario is different than ones in which Boing Boing commenters largely distrust police narratives or disapprove of police actions and decisions?

[Brainspore]

@Mister44

Had they done a sit in, how would this have ended? Probably mouths full of pepper spray and cuffs on the first workday. This seems to bolster the argument that the 2nd Amendment protects the 1st, even if I can’t really support its use in this case.

One of the crazy dudes is dead instead of getting a mouth full of pepper spray. I’d call that a “lose-lose.” Particularly if his death inspires the next Timothy McVeigh wannabe.

[TobinL]

Well this is gonna be interesting then. I really do hope that they will all be arrested and tried and not get the ‘glorious death’ they wish for.