Ok, I’ll try to explain myself better. I definitely support welcoming refugees - this is something that I personally want to put my resources into, and I and my family have a long history of this.
It is absolutely hypocritical to highlight abuse by one group and act like they are symptomatic of that group, while ignoring similar abuses by the wider society. Likewise, expecting immigrants but not nationals to respect women is hypocritical. I expect this from both groups and consider this to be a straw man argument. European countries are far from model societies, but it is absurd to claim that Belgian men are “the worst example possible”.
I don’t agree that refugees have been especially excluded. Germany is not the perfect country that they may imagine, but the amount of material support that people have given is inspiring. Realistically, I don’t think assaults in places like Germany and Sweden can be blamed on exclusion. It isn’t because they’re terrible people either, but it’s a thing that has to be addressed if integration is to be achieved.
My intention is not to focus on negative elements of immigration, but European police and governments have a history of ignoring abuse because it might inflame existing tensions. While it happens and isn’t officially acknowledged, it erodes trust in their effectiveness. When it comes out that this has happened, the far right reaps a harvest of supporters who were lied to by the establishment. I still support refugees, but liberalism without allegiance to reality is dumb and self-defeating.
Thanks for explaining. Makes your points a lot clearer.
And I even agree more with you.
Because you (and I btw) expect this from both groups, does this not make it a straw man argument. What she tried to say in that article is that indeed this behavior is hypocrite. And she exaggerated a bit to make her point. Its not 'They are touching woman!" it is “They are touching our women!” (insert correct accent).
(To make her point more clear, she has been abused when going to a bar alone).
This point we do not agree, I’ve no idea how it is in Germany, but in the Netherlands I do see that immigrants and for that also refugees are especially excluded. For (a specific group) immigrants (allochtonen called over here) you can see that all over. In exclusion from jobs. For refugees not be allowed to work. Focus from the media. Politics…
From the other side there are warming things like people trying to do something for and in the shelters. But these kind of things/initiatives people hardly hear/read about. And if people do, in comments sections of the mainstream media these helping hands are deemed to be ‘naive’.
(to short and also a bit exaggerating, trying to make my point).
This is true, and indeed not a good idea to ignore abuse or other. But I also think people/government/politicians should look at the overwhelming effect the media has. That should be part of the ‘packet’ in establishing a better understanding and working together and trust form all inhabitants.
To be honest, of all the things to criticise Trump over, this is pretty weak. Even being lead in by the title I couldn’t read it as anything other than -
* Man shot inside Paris police station, just announced that terror threat is at highest level
* Germany is a total mess - big crime.
GET SMART!
Having had a refugee in our home for two months now, it’s interesting to hear his impressions on life in Germany. Recently we hosted a couchsurfer originally from Ethiopia who moved to Germany with his family when he was 16. They were taking together about their experiences, and the refugee commented that Germans his age were generally very friendly, but the guys just wanted to drink alcohol all the time and the girls just wanted to kiss him. He commented that it was difficult to make good friends under those conditions. He doesn’t drink, but you can see that he does whatever he can to accommodate people and he will buy alcohol for German friends just to make them feel at home. While he brings both German and Afghan friends over, the Afghan friends have always been particularly polite, quiet and good with our kids, while I haven’t always felt the same about the Germans. I’m not making this into a stereotype either, just saying that the idea that “these people” are inherently more risky than Europeans doesn’t gel with my personal experience.
As far as the exclusion is concerned, I’d have to walk back on my previous comment a bit and say that it is very real (I was reading an article yesterday about the specific problems black people have finding accommodation in Berlin, over and above the problems everyone has. The writer also commented on the high proportion of black people in the city who are homeless and unemployed), but the good feeling that people have shown is also very evident. There have been many genuine efforts to integrate refugees, including large scale language courses, free inner city travel, apprenticeships and targeted efforts to get them into work. It is recognised that this has to be a serious goal, but I can’t really comment on how much opposition refugees find when it comes to applying for a job. Large refugee centres are avoided in favour of smaller centres distributed around the city to discourage ghettoisation.
Many supermarkets in my area have a specific programme where you can buy items in a list and drop them off in a box intended for refugee centres. A couple of weeks ago there was another call for donations in one part of the city; they massively underestimated the response and it caused a big traffic jam. I think they had about three times as much as they were hoping for. The newspaper we get has big columns about the situation all the time, with interviews with refugees, politicians or managers of refugee centres (the largest one is run by a woman in her early 30s) and discussions on how to help. There are TV shows about people’s experiences hosting refugees, which seem very positive. I see adverts all over the place by different charity organisations who are supporting people in different ways. I’m sure there are other areas of the media where the attitude is very different, but it’s not the case that this support is written off as naive in the major news sources. From my perspective, there is a large wave of public support for refugees but I am aware of how quickly that can change - Pegida and other groups are also out there in numbers.
I think a lot of the solution has to be better policy rather than wishing the situation were something that it is not. The abuse in Rotherham didn’t get that bad because Pakistanis are terrible; it was because a generation of politicians and police offices had failed to address it due to uneasiness about the demographic. The Reeperbahn area of Hamburg has been getting less safe for months and that area of Cologne is also a known hotspot for crime, so NYE didn’t happen out of the blue either. Avoiding the stigmatisation of vulnerable groups is vital, but this is better done by treating them in the same way as anyone else - addressing problems promptly, including underlying cultural ones (and misogyny is definitely a reality to be dealt with in white European society too - my point was that it’s not like nobody cares or is doing anything about it. Also, in my experience British men are worse examples than Belgians). Teaching and expecting adherence to cultural ideals such as respect for women does not have to wait for some arbitrary time when all Belgians are good examples.
This is slightly different in the Netherlands. Threating all groups the same way (personal exceptions should be allowed of course), is a thing also needed over here.
And now I know why I had that feeling with your previous posts: over here it is the ‘right wing’ people complaining (…) that ‘a generation of politicians and police offices had failed to address’. But that is pertinent not true, for example a left politician ‘Cohen’ who is named by right wing people ‘the tea drinker’ and said to be always looking away. Is the person who made/proposed laws to address above issues. But facts don’t stop these opinions I’m afraid. But politicians never addressed the latent (or less latent) racism over here. And few are using it to gain something.
But you are definitely different, great to experience that, and a relieve. And your country also, different history can make a big difference even if you are neighbors.
I agree that there’s underlying racism that is coming up, and I know why you feel uneasy about a number of my comments - I don’t want to legitimize them, but it’s often difficult to express issues that I think are important in providing a robust foundation to integration without using language that has been coopted by the far right.
There are plenty of people who are going to be opposed to accepting Muslims or brown people on principle, but there are also those who will oppose further immigration if the authorities cannot convince them that they will deal with issues effectively. Women are particularly vulnerable here, so it is imperative that this issue is handled honestly and convincingly - there are plenty of far right groups who will happily offer alternative assurances of security.
ETA: I’m actually not German, but my wife is from this area.
My partner used to work in a bookshop on Oxford Street in London, and one day a tourist came in and asked in all seriousness if he needed a passport to cross the bridge over the Thames, as he thought it was Paris. I still dine out on that story…
Pedantic alert: She was called Helen of Troy because that’s where Paris was from, not where she was from. He took her back to his home to be with his dad, and (more importantly) Dad’s well-fortified city-state. The influx of Paris (if you see what I mean) would have predated her new appellation as his property instead of her husband’s.
(Why this was important to me to say, I have no idea!)
Contrary to popular belief, women voters tend to be more conservative than male - so it’s not entirely surprising to me that they are well-represented in the extreme right wing. Extremist parties, knowing that their success depends upon fundamental deception, are also quite likely to place women high-up in the party to dilute the stink of thuggishness which surrounds them.
It’s strange everywhere - in the UK, women are hit 3 times harder by the Conservatives’ austerity policies, yet were instrumental in electing them and have been ever since emancipation. I guess that the women voting them in are not the women affected by cuts in most cases (although there was one famous exception on Question Time) - go sisterhood!
It’s an interesting effect - last year I read about a survey where just over 50% of women in the former East Germany would prefer to go back to a situation with the man as the main breadwinner. It was less in the West, but not much less. Men in both parts were happier with more equality. I’m sure you could comment about the amount of housework and childcare that women are expected to do on top of their work, but it’s still interesting.
Dies it translate into support for the extreme right though? I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a different animal.
Women in the DDR worked. It was in the West that they were all ‘Kinder, Kueche, Kirche’. So I think something other than nostalgia is driving the stats you describe.
What do you mean by this? I know there is a much more subtlety than votes in federal elections, but in Canada women are more likely to vote NDP (left) and less likely to vote Conservative (right). In the US they are more likekly to vote Democrat and less likely to vote Republican (the gender gap between Obama and Romney was like 20%). In the UK they are more likely to vote Labour (L) and less likely to vote Conservative (R) or UKIP (Extremist R). In Australia they are more likely to vote Labour (L) and less likely to vote Conservative (R) (although at least in Australia I can find evidence that this is a reversal of a historical trend where women were more right-wing until about 2000).
Is this an English-speaking world phenomenon? I usually look there just because I know I understand the election system and it is pretty easy to categorize left vs. right.
I don’t get this assertion either. I have a uterus, and not only have I never voted R in anything other than a primary (as a spoiler in an open primary state), but have gotten less conservative as the years have passed.
Interesting, but “going back” seems to be strange, as the GDR had no tradition of house wife + male bread-earner. Maybe a case of “wouldn’t it be nice if”?
eta oops, @AnonyMouse already mentioned this point
