Down-your-throat evangelists of anything have proven to be easy yet satisfyingly wholesome targets.
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Thatâs a good point.
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actually, no i was quite clearâŚ
anywayâŚ
There is no âtribeâ of meat eaters though. Most people who eat meat donât identify with any specific dietary group and are all from a variety of different ways of eating, they certainly typically donât label themselves as âmeat eatersâ or introduce themselves as such (iâm sure there are exceptions). They do know that they arenât vegetarians though, and even though they eat most of the same foods as vegetarians PLUS meat, because theyâve been differentiated out by vegetarians into a different camp that creates the distinction. Vegetarians are of a restrictive subset of the same diet, the differentiation is what they donât eat, what they are against eating, that sets them apart. People arenât reacting because people are eating the same thing minus one part. people arenât saying they are bad for not eating that one part. You only get the âtribalâ reaction because of a backlash to them having been differentiated into a different group and judged. It really couldnât be more clear from someone who has been in both camps.
âŚthe âpro-lifeâ movement is almost a perfect parallel, because the views and judgments are very similar and on the same caliber (murder, etc.). If it was only an opinion they applied to their own lives and choices there would be no issue, it is that the judgment and opinions extend to what others should or should not do that the issue arises and camps divide. The other camp simply thinks people should be allowed to choose as they see fit. they arenât pro abortion, they donât encourage everyone to have them, they are pro choice. in the same way meat eaters arenât against eating vegetables, they arenât trying to get vegetarians to eat meat, they are against people being against eating meat, period. they are not against what the vegetarian is eating, they eat those foods as well. the distinction is very important in order to understand the perspective of both sides of the coin. any reaction past this is based on previous encounters. thatâs my take having been on both sides of the fence. anywayâŚ
Thatâs your idea of clear?
There is when there is a vegetarian in their midst.
Which you have been assured multiple times by multiple posters is often the case when vegetarians get picked on, and yet you still argue that somehow, they attacked the meat eaters.
I get your point, it doesnât tally with my experience, and I disagree with you. Struggling to see why you are devoting so much column space to expanding on it, frankly.
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Admirable. Thatâs me, too, to a point, but I have to assume youâve never shared a communal microwave.
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no, itâs my idea of NOT specific, which is what Iâve been saying.
Look Thag that person eat same as me except not everything, lets get. LOL.
Give me a break, either you get the distinction or you donât.
No, again, stop setting up straw men, i have clarified multiple times, it isnât the ones that are totally okay with meat eating that are creating the backlash reaction. i really can only spell that out so many times. having been vegan for almost 10 years, a large part of my social circle was vegan and i know exactly the kind of judgements that the majority brought to the table so to speak. iâm not inventing or over inflating anything. ask a meat eater who reacts to a vegetarian why they reacted, i guarantee youâll hear something very familiar to what iâve been saying.
fair enough. why I am replying to your disagreements about my comments or miss-assertions about my viewpoints? geezeâŚsorry i am replying to direct replies, didnât realize that was an unfathomable reaction.
ewwwwâŚthe mental images burn⌠
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MeatsplainingâŚduh!
(credit to Daneel)
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exactly!
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Ah. Now I get it. The circle of vegans that you were part of were dominant and argumentative.
I wouldnât spend 15 minutes IRL with a group like that, so I donât have your special insight into that sort of person.
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Even towards me for eating with meat eaters even though i was vegan myself!!!
Yeah, I know, much better to hang out with hundreds of bullying hunters! 
i guess we canât always choose who surrounds us IRL.
(although i did get a kick out of combining the words dominant with vegan for some reasonâŚso thank you for thatâŚthe idea of a pack of vegans is an amusing image.)
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I edited that to âclearâ. I just had âspecificâ in my head. It was pretty easy to read it as a nod and a wink to all Vegans are wackjobs, but I accept thats not what you meant.
Oh please.
I think this is probably our key disagreement, the idea that there is such a preponderance of aggressive vegetarianism in the community at large that most meat eaters have first-hand experience with their diet being challenged, and so are understandably defensive whenever they are in the presence of someone who identifies as vegetarian that they lash out, whether or not that person challenges them.
Let me know if Iâve summarised that incorrectly, because this is where I think we have a difference of opinion.
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That does seem to have strongly informed your view of how vegetarians are perceived by the wider community. I am thinking that in certain parts of the US this is probably quite accurate.
I agree with you that the vast majority of vegetarians are totally civil and a pleasure to interact with.
The off-the-rails minority are -so- obnoxious, -so- over the top (this group and PETA for example) that their throw weight, their impression on the rest of us, is way out of proportion to their actual numbers. Itâs kind of a force multiplier thing.
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change a word and i think that fits my assertion, which is that a large percentage of vegetarians view meat eating as wrong or immoral, not just as a personal choice with no judgments towards what others do. Very few if any meat eaters view vegetarianism as wrong or immoral, and in fact they eat vegetarian food in addition to their meats. When they react they are reacting to the judgment, not judging the exclusion from the diet. Yep. Now that sums it up.
Indeed. We are all informed by our personal experiences. Mine were largely in colorado, california, and the PNW, which are also the three highest percentage of vegetarian areas in the USA.
Internationally I had much different experiences. In Ireland I told a waiter that I was Vegan and didnât eat anything from an animal, and they replied incredulously âYOU DONâT EAT WHEAT?â I actually had to explain to them that wheat was not from an animal.
Of course experience aside, there is a very real differentiation between the perspectives of both camps. Even reactionary meat eaters arenât against eating vegetables, they arenât trying to get vegetarians to eat meat, they are against people being against eating meat, which is very different then being directly against what someone eats, or viewing the person as immoral, or at the extreme end a murderer. Meat eaters are not against vegetarianism.
Was it okay that i replied to both your new replies? I think we see where we disagree, which I think is all that can be hoped for at this point.
Exactly!!!
The diners in this restaurant are quite aware that chicken meat comes from animals, which are killed. And theyâve all made their peace with that fact. Where Kelly and her crew go way wrong is in thinking that by shouting just a little bit louder, by turning the tears and the frustration up to eleven, that they can change those realities.
Now maybe, if she were to talk factually and sincerely about cruelty and factory farming, she would change some minds. But again, the people in the restaurant know perfectly well that itâs not factory farming that sheâs worked up about, itâs eating meat. And Kelly, they just do not care about that.
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I love that having hit a certain point in the thread, it appears to be 3 vegans debating the specifics of their diet/lifestyle. Itâs fun to watch.
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I think redesignedâs comments are pretty fair. My only mass media exposure to vegetarian/veaganism has been by way of PETA and similar militant animal rights groups willing to do or say anything (like blaming autism on consuming animal products without evidence). The vegans/vegetarians I know in my personal life have only ever been cordial when it comes to their dietary needs, but the most visible public advocates for such a diet are pretty abrasive. They make a bad impression with many people.
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Vegetarianism/veganism is a luxury that many cannot afford. If you are poor in the USA, you often cannot afford to eat much besides fast food (yes groceries can cost more than prepared food). Having the knowledge and means to strictly control your diet is something not available to many, especially in smaller towns, rural communities, etc. There is not much in the way of vegan/veggie options outside of costal communities and large urban centers. So if they feel defensive about their diet when faced with the likes of PETA, I canât blame them.
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I agree 100%. Factory farming is an issue that I think a lot of meat eaters could be swayed on and could make a real change. Most of them are not for unnecessary cruelty and donât want animals to suffer. Ironically the chickens from the restaurant in that video were from a small farm and raised humanely.
I recently watched a documentary about food âdesertsâ in many communities where no fresh food was available and the efforts to bring fresh food choices to those areas. It was eye opening. That is an excellent point and something I was not personally aware of until recently.
I canât argue with that.
Agreed (that they donât have moral objections)(although I did hear a lot about how vegetables can feel pain. That even came up again in this thread).
OK I agree, what we disagree on is where that judgement comes from, and how appropriate the reaction is. My experience is that the judgement is often felt to be implied, even if the vegetarian in question states otherwise, and the non-vegetarian will still react as though they finally had a chance to punch PETA personally in the face. We donât accept that kind of rationale in other cases of bullying.
There are really only a few pockets of Australia where you would find significant vegetarian populations, around Byron Bay and Nimbin springs to mind. I also think the Australian population at large is pretty quick to pick up our clubs and start yelling from the mouth of the cave.
Iâve met plenty who have given some thought to the matter and were able to offer a number of counter-arguments to the vegetarian diet (usually nutrition based), so Iâm not so sure thatâs true.
I donât think its that sad. If our worst disagreement is about the finer points vegetarian social etiquette weâre still left with plenty of room to manoeuvre.
You can stop being a dick now, thatâs my shtick and youâll need a union card if you want in.
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I can agree with that. Never justified. reason != justification. we should all just be cool and get along!
Okay that is fair, Iâve run into that as well. Maybe we can meet at not many are ethically against vegetarianism although some argue its nutritional merits, which also happens the reverse direction as well, and to be honest iâve never minded that discussion so long as it was informed and well intended. That is interesting and involves science and stuff. Much fewer high horses in that race.
i humbly accept you olive branch of humor and offer the same in return. (except i donât have anything funny to say. derp.)
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